Is Your Cellular Membrane Leaking the Fuel That Keeps You Going? (Why NAD+ Isn't Enough)

In this episode of the Health Optimization Medicine Podcast, Dr. Scott Sherr sits down with Dr. Ted Achacoso, Dr. Allen Bookatz, and Dr. Jodi Duval to explore:

• Why do so many people continue to struggle with fatigue despite taking premium longevity supplements like NAD+, NMN, and CoQ10, and could the real problem be a damaged mitochondrial membrane instead of a lack of fuel?
• What happens to the mitochondrial membrane as we age, and how does the decline of phosphatidylcholine lead to proton leak, oxidative stress, and reduced ATP production?
• Why does Health Optimization Medicine focus on salutogenesis, the root causes of health, instead of the traditional disease-centered model of pathogenesis?
• How can clinical metabolomics and membrane lipidomics reveal mitochondrial dysfunction long before conventional blood tests detect a problem?
• What role do phosphatidylcholine, methyl donors, and the PEMT pathway play in maintaining healthy mitochondrial membranes, and why should supplementation follow a structured clinical protocol?
• Can oral phosphatidylcholine actually survive digestion and become incorporated into cell membranes, or is supplementation unnecessary if you consume enough dietary choline?
• Why does HOMeHOPe prioritize rebuilding cellular structure before attempting to increase energy production, and how does this shift the conversation from disease prevention to true health optimization?
• What practical steps can clinicians and patients take to restore membrane integrity, improve cellular bioenergetics, and build the foundation for long-term metabolic health?

What We Discuss:

00:00 – Are Your Mitochondria Leaking Energy?
01:41 – Why NAD+ Isn't Fixing Your Fatigue
02:33 – Membrane Integrity: The Missing Piece of Cellular Health
05:12 – Proton Leak, ROS & Why Mitochondria Age
06:13 – Why Standard Blood Tests Miss Bioenergetic Decline
09:07 – Clinical Metabolomics & Measuring Membrane Health
10:34 – Phosphatidylcholine: Rebuilding the Mitochondrial Membrane
12:52 – Prevention vs Health Optimization Medicine
14:36 – Does Oral Phosphatidylcholine Actually Work?
15:29 – The Science Behind PC Absorption & PEMT
17:41 – Three Clinical Takeaways for Better Cellular Energy
20:03 – Why Cellular Health Comes Before Lifestyle Medicine
22:43 – Final Thoughts: Stop Feeding Leaky Mitochondria

Full Transcript:

[00:00:00] Jodi Duval: You are spending hundreds of dollars a month on premium longevity supplements like NAD+ precursors, NMN, and CoQ10, but your cells are still starving. Why? Well, because you are treating your mitochondria like a furnace that simply needs more coal, while ignoring the fact that the furnace itself is physically falling apart.

[00:00:24] Jodi Duval: Groundbreaking research published in Nature Communications has revealed that the natural aging of mitochondria is driven not by genetic defects, but by the structural decay of the lipid bilayer. As phosphatidylcholine synthesis declines with age, the mitochondria double membrane begins to leak protons, dissipating the vital electrochemical gradient.

[00:00:48] Jodi Duval: No amount of chemical coal can create or generate energy if your biological walls are leaking. So to restore power and cellular power, you must first rebuild [00:01:00] the membrane

[00:01:04] Dr. Scott Sherrr: This is the Health Optimization Medicine podcast. Your clinical team today is Dr. Scott Sherrr, yours truly, board-certified internist and health optimization medicine doctor; Dr. Allen Bookatz, chief of emergency medicine and health optimization medicine doctor; Jodi Duval, naturopathic doctor and health optimization medicine practitioner; and Dr.

[00:01:21] Dr. Scott Sherrr: Ted Achacoso, founder of Health Optimization Medicine and Practice and our founding pioneer. Today, your clinical team is going after one question: Is your cellular membrane leaking the fuel that keeps you going? In the next 25 minutes or so, you'll get the cellular mechanism, the clinical protocol, and the one thing most practitioners get wrong about it.

[00:01:40] Dr. Scott Sherrr: Let's go. 

[00:01:41] Dr. Allen Bookatz: All right. Welcome back, everybody. Let's get right into it. So in my health optimization clinic, I see patients on 20 different mitochondrial support supplements, and they still say they are exhausted. They're fatigued, they're wiped out, brain fog, their recovery metrics, [00:02:00] HRV, everything's moving in the wrong direction, and they just wake up every day feeling like their own biology has basically turned on them.

[00:02:07] Dr. Allen Bookatz: And so, you know, they're-- since they're exhausted, they're just naturally curious about what NAD can offer. So our $64,000 question here is, what is the point of pouring expensive NAD infusions into your cells if the mitochondria are leaking the proton gradient right back out? Jodi, help break down for us this biophysical reality here.

[00:02:29] Dr. Allen Bookatz: What's actually happening with the structure of the basic cell as we age? 

[00:02:33] Jodi Duval: Yeah, it's a very good question and such a HOMeHOPe question, isn't it, Alan? It's, um, the biophysical reality is that we actually have been completely ignoring the lipids. So standard medicine and even functional medicine are obsessed with pathways and pathogenesis, looking for what is broken or what disease is manifesting.

[00:02:55] Jodi Duval: Functional medicine focuses on the pathogenesis, still hunting for the [00:03:00] root cause of disease. But in health optimization medicine, we focus on salutogenesis, which is the root cause of health. And the functional root cause of cellular health is membrane integrity. So root cause is not enough if the root question is still disease.

[00:03:18] Jodi Duval: Pathogenesis is root causes of disease, and salutogenesis is the root causes of health. So to understand this, we have to then look at that inner membrane or inner mitochondrial membrane, the IMM. This is where the oxidative phosphorylation occurs, and the electron transport chain pumps protons from the matrix into the intermembrane space.

[00:03:42] Jodi Duval: So this creates that electrochemical gradient, a biological battery. But then the lipid composition of this membrane is 90% phospholipids, 90%. So the most abundant of these is phosphatidylcholine, or PC. As we [00:04:00] age, the natural synthesis of this PC declines. And so the way this was elegantly demonstrated in a landmark study published in Nature Communications by Dr.

[00:04:11] Jodi Duval: Maria's team at the Leibniz Institute, Institute of Aging in Germany. So they discovered that when PC levels drop, the mitochondrial membrane loses their flexibility, they fragment And then they can no longer undergo the mitochondrial fusion, which is the vital process where mitochondria merge and to share that DNA.

[00:04:34] Jodi Duval: So signaling molecules and repair components. Without PC and all of these processes, the membrane physically degrades. So the protons begin to leak directly back across the bilayer and bypassing the ATP synthase pump So this battery is then short-circuited. It's, it's not a good thing. So no matter how much NAD+ or CoQ10 you throw at [00:05:00] this electron transport chain from all the supplementations that everyone is taking, the protons leak right back through the wall, and so then you cannot generate a charge in a leaky battery.

[00:05:12] Dr. Ted Achacoso: Jodi's absolutely correct, and let's ground this in evolutionary biology, one of my favorite subjects. In our evolutionary history, our basic cell was designed to maintain strict boundaries. This double membrane lipid bilayer of the mitochondrion is an evolutionary masterpiece descending from ancient alphaproteobacteria.

[00:05:30] Dr. Ted Achacoso: It requires a precise ratio of phosphatidylcholine to keep the membrane fluid yet sealed. When PC declines, the membrane experiences proton leak. This is not just loss of energy, it is a biophysical crisis. When protons leak, the mitochondrial membrane potential drops, which triggers the generation of massive amounts of reactive oxygen species or ROS, causing oxidative damage.

[00:05:54] Dr. Ted Achacoso: This is a classic cell danger response stage or CDR1 activation. The cell [00:06:00] stops behaving as an energy producer and locks itself into defense mode. Just because you're not sick doesn't mean you are healthy, it only means that you are not sick. If your cells are constantly leaking protons, they are surviving, but they are not optimized.

[00:06:13] Dr. Scott Sherrr: Surviving but not thriving, right, Dr. Ted? So as an internist, so what I find here is that there-- I see a clinical disconnect, okay? In, in conventional training, we are taught to look for pathology, so mitochondrial diseases like Leigh syndrome or severe respiratory chain defects. But what we're talking about here is natural aging, you know, in quotes.

[00:06:34] Dr. Scott Sherrr: The subclinical progressive decline of mitochondrial network integrity that happens to everyone. If a patient comes in complaining of low stamina, standard blood panels show normal ranges, but those reference ranges are survival ranges designed to catch advanced pathology, not health. The target is not just longer quantity of life, the target is longer biological peak quality of life.

[00:06:53] Dr. Scott Sherrr: Lifespan without healthspan is not the win. If we look at the lipidomics of these membranes, we will see that the mitochondrial [00:07:00] network is actually fragmented. The engine is literally leaking its electrical current, and the patient is suffering from subclinical bioenergetic depletion. 

[00:07:07] Dr. Allen Bookatz: Yeah, Scott, it-- this, this reminds me of like driving a top-tier sports car like a Lambo, right?

[00:07:14] Dr. Allen Bookatz: And you have the spark plug wires just shorting out. You're-- You can floor it all you want, you can put in the highest octane fuel, you can throw that thing on the Autobahn without, you know, any speed limit, and then all you're getting is these misfires and smoke, and you're kind of burning out your engine.

[00:07:30] Dr. Allen Bookatz: So I, I feel like that's probably why our patients feel worse on these massive doses of NAD or, you know, if you push them hard with stimulants when nobody's addressing the actual cell membranes themselves. I, I guess I kind of think of it like they're, they're running an uncoupled engine. So Jodi, how, how do we catch this subclinical leak before it turns into full systemic fatigue, or at least in this case, engine failure 

[00:07:52] Jodi Duval: [00:07:53] Jodi Duval: And it's such a good analogy, isn't it, when we're talking about things that we can relate to, like cars. Yeah, and I use this a lot for, my [00:08:00] male clients. So we actually- Plastogenic shortcomings, you know? Yeah, yeah. And they're like, "Oh, that's amazing." Or bricks. I use bricks a lot, and buildings a lot about the foundations.

[00:08:11] Jodi Duval: And the mortar in between. That's just so beautiful. 

[00:08:13] Dr. Scott Sherrr: This would mean nothing to me. Meet us where we're at. Just, you know. Yeah. 

[00:08:14] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[00:08:15] Dr. Scott Sherrr: This, this would mean nothing to me, Jodi, if you said it to me. But let- let's be honest. 

[00:08:18] Jodi Duval: Yeah. Yeah, we can stick with these sorts of analogies of just the biology, Scott, for you.

[00:08:23] Jodi Duval: Yeah, for me. Thank you. You're like, "Yes, you got me." Well, 

[00:08:26] Dr. Allen Bookatz: no, for Scott, we say it's like a, it's like, having a hyperbaric, right? With a compressor- Yes ... that can't push air in, right? 

[00:08:33] Jodi Duval: Yes. Despite us turning the dial. That we've got a block- Blockage ... and the, the air can't come through. You got a kink in the hose.

[00:08:38] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[00:08:38] Dr. Scott Sherrr: Thank you for the translation, Alan. That was very helpful. Yeah. I appreciate it. The Health Optimization Medicine Conference is happening two days of events, October 2nd and 3rd, Chicago, Illinois, at the Drake Hotel. CMEs available to practitioners who need them. Just 150 people with amazing speakers on the cutting edge of health and wellness.

[00:08:57] Dr. Scott Sherrr: This is a community. It's not your average conference. If you're [00:09:00] interested, go to homehope.org and save 25% on your ticket by using conference25 at checkout. I hope to see you there. 

[00:09:07] Jodi Duval: Oh, so to answer your question, Alan, we detect it by looking at the basic cell metabolome using the clinical metabolomics instead of the static blood markers.

[00:09:17] Jodi Duval: So we measure the actual functional biomarkers of mitochondrial activity and membrane composition, which we can actually do now. Like, it's absolutely incredible. Specifically, we actually run the advanced membrane lipidomics. So we measure the exact ratios of phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylethanolamine, and cardiolipin.

[00:09:39] Jodi Duval: So we also look at the urinary organic acids, such as the ci- citric acid cycle intermediates, adipic acid, suberic acid, and these tell us if fatty acid beta oxidation is stalled due to the membrane transport issues. So our goal is metabolic neotization, shifting these [00:10:00] cellular sub networks back to the optimal values, and that's when the individual was 21 to 30 years old.

[00:10:08] Jodi Duval: And so HOMeHOPe does not prescribe lifestyle from disease markers. We prescribe lifestyle from the cellular health markers, and lifestyle advice becomes precision medicine then, only when health markers guide the prescription. So we need to be matching this with the health markers to be able to be accurate and supportive to our clients, and they love the data.

[00:10:34] Jodi Duval: They wanna see this data, and then they're gonna work harder for it. So once we then identify the deficiency, our first line of intervention is not a drug. It's a bioactive bioidentical lipid replacement therapy. We use highly purified pharmaceutical-grade oral phosphatidylcholine, but we must do it- in a precise, structured sequence, and you can't just supplement PC in isolation.

[00:10:57] Jodi Duval: Like many things, we need to be thinking everything [00:11:00] as a network. You must support the entire methylation cycle because the PEMT pathway, which synthesizes PC endogenously in the liver, is the single largest consumer of methyl donors in the body. So our clinical stack order generally is first we look at supplying the bioactive phosphatidylcholine or PC At a 1.8 to 3.6 grams daily, taken with a fat-containing meal to then optimize that absorption, lymphatic absorption.

[00:11:27] Jodi Duval: And then second, we stack with a methyl donor and cofactors. So we look at trimethylglycine or TMG at 500 to 1,000 milligrams daily, and alongside bioactive B vitamins. So we look at something like methylcobalamin, methylfolate, and then this supports the PEMT pathway to sustain your body's natural PC production.

[00:11:51] Jodi Duval: A little bit of a caveat or nuance here, we also wanna make sure that we're testing for these, which we do, and we make sure that you're taking the right [00:12:00] amount for what you need personally. So there is, you know, a sideline to those B vitamins, making sure that you're requiring them at those set doses.

[00:12:09] Jodi Duval: And thirdly, anchor with chronobiology. So taking your PC in the morning to support the, the natural surge and the morning surge of the bile liver lipid metabolism. So aligning it with your circadian rhythm like we always do for all of our supplementation and our hormone therapies. So if you want to then do this on a Monday action step, let's start using sunflower-derived or egg-derived phosphatidylcholine daily.

[00:12:38] Jodi Duval: So that's really important. We wanna try and stay away from soy and stack it with a high-quality methyl donor like TMG. And then the simple stack provides the raw materials to seal your leaky membranes and restore your ATP output. 

[00:12:52] Dr. Ted Achacoso: Well, thank you, Jodi. And this is where we must distinguish our clinical standard from conventional preventive medicine.[00:13:00] 

[00:13:00] Dr. Ted Achacoso: Prevention is the prevention of disease, and so it's still disease-centered. Health optimization is health-centered. Preventive medicine tells you how to avoid trans fats and eat a generic low cholesterol diet to prevent heart attacks. But that is a disease-centered approach that completely misses cellular requirement.

[00:13:17] Dr. Ted Achacoso: Your brain is 60% fat, 60%, and your mitochondrial membranes are 90% phospholipids. If you restrict healthy fats and fail to provide bioidentical phospholipids, you are starving your membranes of the very raw materials they need to maintain cell coherency and salutogenesis. We optimize health by ensuring every basic cell has its evolutionary required structural components.

[00:13:41] Dr. Ted Achacoso: And I do remember very clearly when I was younger and I had, like, three months where I kept... During the summer where I, where I kept my body fat less than 5%. I looked really very ripped, but I was so depressed. And- So 

[00:13:58] Dr. Scott Sherrr: many hours ... 

[00:13:58] Dr. Ted Achacoso: that is actually [00:14:00] depriving your brain of fat. 

[00:14:02] Dr. Allen Bookatz: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a great, it's a great real, real-world example.

[00:14:06] Dr. Allen Bookatz: And, and I think what you're saying, Ted, that's, that's a real clinical shift here, is that we're moving away really from chemically manipulating these enzymes to physically rebuilding the actual membrane itself. So but this is-- it's all great in, in concept, but I think it's time that we stress test this a little bit just 'cause that's what we do.

[00:14:28] Dr. Allen Bookatz: So let's talk about what the pushback on oral phosphatidylcholine supplementation looks like. 

[00:14:33] Dr. Scott Sherrr: Yeah, you gotta have a give us a steel man argument here, Alan, please. 

[00:14:36] Dr. Allen Bookatz: Yeah, I'll be your steel man. So let's go ahead and build the strongest possible argument against our own position. A traditional biochemist or a conventional GI doc would look at our PC protocol and would probably make two main arguments.

[00:14:49] Dr. Allen Bookatz: The first, oral phosphatidylcholine gets broken down by the gut, by these phospholipases in the pancreas, and, and it, it gets broken down into choline and free fatty acids [00:15:00] before it even gets absorbed. So this whole wonderfully intact PC structure never really makes it in that light into our systemic circulation.

[00:15:09] Dr. Allen Bookatz: Second of all, the body's own PC synthesis through CDP-choline pathway is plentiful redundant. If you eat enough eggs or soy, then you basically have all the choline you need to make your own PC, and they would claim that an expensive oral PC supplement is completely redundant. So Scott, I don't know, how do we answer this?

[00:15:29] Dr. Scott Sherrr: Ah, well, that's an excellent steel man, Alan, and we must take it seriously. It is true that a significant portion of dietary PC is cleaved in the gut into lyso-PC and free fatty acids. However, molecular tracer studies show that these lyso-PC molecules are rapidly re-esterified back into intact phosphatidylcholine inside the enterocytes before being packaged into chylomicrons and transported via the lymphatic system, bypassing hepatic first pass clearance.

[00:15:56] Dr. Scott Sherrr: That's a lot of big words. Hope everybody got those. This, this allows intact [00:16:00] phospholipids to in- directly in- integrate into cell membranes systemically, including the mitochondrial outer and inner membranes. Furthermore, the endogenous CDP-choline and PEMT pathways are redundant. They are highly energy-dependent and decline significantly with age due to systemic methylation depletion and mitochondrial fragmentation.

[00:16:17] Dr. Scott Sherrr: PEMT stands for Phosphatidylethanolamine N-methyltransferase. It is the key enzyme that drives the body's internal endogenous production of choline. In an aging or chronically stressed individual, the enzymatic machinery is compromised. Expecting an energy-starved cell to synthesize its own structural lipids is a classic error.

[00:16:34] Dr. Scott Sherrr: By providing preformed, highly bioavailable phosphatidylcholine, we bypass these metabolic bottlenecks, allowing the cell to conserve its precious ATP and immediately restore its membrane boundaries. 

[00:16:44] Dr. Ted Achacoso: What is PEMT again, Scott? It's Phosphatidylethanolamine N-methyltransferase, right? MEM. And we must remember that the cell is an open thermodynamic system.

[00:16:57] Dr. Ted Achacoso: It must expend energy to maintain its [00:17:00] internal order against entropy, like you have to actually keep your room in order, otherwise it will just be a mess. If the membrane is leaky, the me- the cell has to spend more energy pumping protons back out, which leaves less energy for cellular repair, DNA replication, and salutogenesis.

[00:17:16] Dr. Ted Achacoso: Providing exogenous bioidentical PC is a form of thermodynamic unburdening. We are giving the cell its structural components so it doesn't have to waste its scarce ATP trying to manufacture them from scratch in a compromised state. This is how we signal safety to the cell danger response network. 

[00:17:35] Dr. Allen Bookatz: Wow, that was an incredible deep dive into mitochondrial biophysics.

[00:17:41] Dr. Allen Bookatz: So let's, for those of you that were just getting by in this, in this podcast, let's pull it into our three concrete takeaways that you can actually use. Takeaway number one, Dr. Ted. 

[00:17:53] Dr. Ted Achacoso: Mitochondrial aging is fundamentally a structural decay of the membrane's lipid bilayer. Before you waste money [00:18:00] on expensive energy-boosting supplements like NAD+ or CoQ10, you must first seal your biological boundaries.

[00:18:07] Dr. Ted Achacoso: Restoring membrane phosphatidylcholine is required to plug proton leaks, restore electrochemical gradient, and allow the mitochondria to generate clean and coupled 

[00:18:18] Jodi Duval: ATP. All right. Thanks, Ted. So that's rebuilding the bilayer, number one, so takeaway one. And then takeaway two, I think, would be supporting the methylation cycle.

[00:18:29] Jodi Duval: So phosphatidylcholine synthesis is the single larg- largest consumer of the methyl groups in the human body. So to optimize this in your membranes, you must support your body's natural synthesis pathways and always stack in your oral phosphatidylcholine with methyl donors like trimethylglycine and bioactive b- B vitamins to prevent that metabolic bottlenecks and supporting endogenous lipid production.

[00:18:53] Jodi Duval: But always test your Bs and make sure you know your levels. All right. Take us to takeaway three, Alan. [00:19:00] 

[00:19:00] Dr. Allen Bookatz: All right. Measure, don't guess. Look, guys, this stuff is expensive, all right? So skip whatever Instagram-style advertisement that tells you you actually need this, and don't w- lean on, you know, your in- standard influencers like maybe Dr.

[00:19:17] Dr. Allen Bookatz: Scott Sherrr, unless, he's actually your health optimization doctor. So Use clinical metabolomics and membrane lipidomics to measure your actual cell biomarkers and the real-time lipid ratios. The precision medicine that we're talking about here starts when objective cellular health markers, not guesswork, not Instagram influencers, actually drive your lifestyle and your nutrient prescriptions.

[00:19:43] Jodi Duval: Amen, Alan. Here's, here's the correct information. It's like there is a lot of, yeah, a saturation- That being said- ... of the wrong type- Yeah ... out there, isn't there? Yeah. 

[00:19:54] Dr. Allen Bookatz: That, that being said, like and subscribe Dr. Scott. 

[00:19:57] Jodi Duval: Yeah. [00:20:00] Yeah. Follow, follow Dr. Scott only and, you'll be right. Don't listen to me. Just follow Jodi.

[00:20:03] Jodi Duval: You'll be right with your info. Yeah. All right, so let's bring this all together, shall we? So our discussion today highlights the core philosophy of health optimization, medicine, and practice. We are not treating mitochondrial diseases. We are optimizing the bioenergetics of the basic cell, which is the universal common denominator of health across every tissue and organ in the body.

[00:20:29] Jodi Duval: So when we look through the lens of holon to biology, we realize that we are an ecosystem. Our host cells, our symbiotic microbes are entire- are entirely dependent on the structural integrity of their membranes to communicate and maintain balance. So conventional lifestyle medicine relies on broad lifestyle advice like generic diet or exercise guidelines.

[00:20:55] Jodi Duval: You know, generic. And everyone... And this is the information that we're talking about on social [00:21:00] media, like, "Do this and you'll be amazing." No. No. You need to do it based on yourselves and your individual needs. This is, you know, used to prevent chronic disease. But in HOMeHOPe, we realize that lifestyle advice only becomes precision medicine when we objective, when we use objective cellular health markers and let that guide the prescription.

[00:21:21] Jodi Duval: So we optimize the cell level safety first so that the lifestyle changes actually have the bioenergetic foundations to take hold. And we talk about safety a lot So by using clinical metabolomics to guide our interventions, we shift from geriatrization to neotization, restoring the lipid ratios of our cell membranes to the optimal youthful ranges of ages 21 to 30.

[00:21:49] Jodi Duval: And this is how we support salutogenesis and cell coherency. In HOMeHOPe, we do not prescribe lifestyle from disease markers. It prescribes [00:22:00] lifestyle from cellular health markers. We don't wait for the engine to break or the wall to fall down with the mortar that has broken. We optimize the double membrane lipid bilayer to help the biological battery fully charged.

[00:22:16] Dr. Ted Achacoso: Remember, health is not a static state of being not sick. Health is an active, dynamic, and energy-dependent balance between anabolism and catabolism, and that balance requires a sealed, flexible membrane boundary to maintain the necessary electrochemical potentials of life. Mind your boundaries, as mama used to say.

[00:22:36] Dr. Ted Achacoso: Rebuild your membranes, support your methylation, and let your cells do what they were evolutionarily designed to do, maintain health. 

[00:22:43] Dr. Scott Sherrr: Well, this has been the Health Optimization Medicine Podcast. Today we went after the question, is your cellular membrane leaking the fuel that keeps you young? We got the cellular mechanism of phosphatidylcholine decline, the clinical stack protocol of PC plus TMG, and the one thing most anti-aging practitioners get wrong, [00:23:00] trying to boost ATP in a leaky, uncoupled membrane.

[00:23:03] Dr. Scott Sherrr: If you want to move beyond disease-centric medicine, master the clinical multi-omics framework of health optimization medicine, and join a global community of forward-thinking healthcare practitioners, check out our certification at homehope.org. Discover how to measure and balance lipids inside our practitioner portal, inside our practitioner ecosystem, and our certification.

[00:23:21] Dr. Scott Sherrr: Check it out at homehope.org. We'll see you all next week. 

[00:23:25] Dr. Allen Bookatz: Bye. Bye-bye. 

Bye.

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