The Cell Danger Response Explained (Why You’re Not Healing)

• What is the cell danger response, and how does it function as an evolutionarily conserved survival mechanism rather than a disease?
• Why does the body prioritize protection and inflammation first, before repair and full resolution?
• How do the three stages of the cell danger response shape clinical outcomes when the body becomes “stuck” in one phase?
• Why can common interventions like antioxidants, fasting, or supplements backfire when applied at the wrong stage?
• How does identifying and removing the underlying threat change the trajectory of healing and health optimization?

What We Discuss:

00:00 Intro: What Is the Cell Danger Response?
01:30 Dr. Robert Naviaux & the Origin of CDR
03:00 CDR Stage 1: Defense, Inflammation & Survival
05:30 Mitochondria as Sensors (Not Just Batteries)
07:30 ATP Signaling & Cellular Danger Alerts
10:00 Why Suppressing Inflammation Can Backfire
12:00 CDR Stage 2: Repair, Growth & Proliferation
15:30 Chronic Disease as “Stuck” CDR (Cancer, Diabetes)
18:30 Gut Health, Hormones & CDR2 Dysfunction
21:30 CDR Stage 3: Resolution & Reintegration
24:00 Chronic Fatigue & Being Stuck in CDR3
26:30 Why You Must Remove the Threat First
29:00 What Clinicians Should (and Should NOT) Do
31:30 Final Takeaways: Survival, Stall & Mitochondria

Full Transcript:

[00:00:32] Boomer Anderson: Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Health Optimization Medicine Podcast. Today, we have Jodi Duval, we have Dr. Ted, and myself.

[00:00:44]
For those of you who are tuning in to this on YouTube, smile, we're saying hi to you. Uh, but also for those of you listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please like, subscribe, leave comments, all that fun stuff. We're going to dive into so many fun things today, and perhaps my new, well, not so, it's not really a new concept, but my new favorite topic within, um, health optimization medicine is the cell danger response.

[00:01:13]
Uh, perhaps because it's had a very profound effect in my own, a journey. I don't want to say healing journey because that's too California, uh, but today we're going to talk about the cell danger response and we're going to go, uh, we're going to kind of frame this more as a foundational episode within the cell danger response.

[00:01:32]
And so, in order to do that, we need to take you guys through the history of cell danger response. Going all the way back to Robert Naviaux from University of California, San Diego, San Diego. I almost said San Diego, which is actually the Ron Burgundy way of saying San Diego. Uh, but in order to do that, I have to invite somebody to this conversation. Dr. Ted, uh, you're the one who brought us the rich work of Robert Naviaux. What the hell is the cell danger response? Who is Robert Naviaux? Why should we care?

[00:02:00] Dr. Ted Achacoso: Well, uh, Robert Naviaux is of course, a physician-scientist at UCSD as you said, and, uh, he created a framework that was published actually in 2013 and 2014, Journal of Mitochondria. And that was the time where I was actually very, very actively, uh, doing, uh, a lot of lecturing about mitochondria, right?

[00:02:29]
And then when he came out with this framework and then, uh, you know, looking at health optimization medicine and practice, I saw that the framework is actually, uh, a very much evolutionarily conserved, um, mechanism of the cell in order to protect itself.

[00:02:46]
So, in other words, when it's threatened, it will always protect itself one way, and then it will resolve, uh, itself, right? So, it's a very beautiful, uh, and and well-conserved, uh, mechanism. It's not a disease, right? It's just a framework for looking at how the cell actually protects and adapts itself evolutionarily to certain threats.

[00:03:09]
For example, physical threats, chemical threats, infections like viruses, and you're looking at this from a single cell, right? You're not looking at this on a personal level. What does a cell do when it's actually threatened by all of this? And and of course, they also found out like, you know, psychosocial stress, right?

[00:03:26]
Those for example, the stressful separations and divorces could actually activate the cell danger response. And, since I've known to joke about, you know, uh, removing toxins in your life, including the removal of toxic partners, you know, uh, by looking at it from the cell danger response lens, it's certainly not, uh, you know, a far-fetched, uh, uh, joke anymore.

[00:03:52]
Uh, so, when you look at the cell danger response, there's actually the basic premise is this is a survival mechanism, right? So, protection first before anything else. We protect ourselves against all threats. So, that's the underlying part. And then, uh, so, it's a when you're looking at the, Naviaux proposed like three different cell danger responses, right?

[00:04:14]
Cell danger response one, right, will be the contain, to contain the damage, right? You're not repairing the damage yet. You're just containing it and you're defending yourself from it, right? So, uh, so and this how does the body do that? And you know the first defense of the body is actually to inflame, right? So, you see a lot of information and so on.

[00:04:36]
And then, and then the second part will be, so, that will actually, when left, right, when left to to to heal, the body is actually healthy, the body will go into a stage called, um, uh, CDR two, or cell danger response, uh, stage two, right? And this is marked by what's called a proliferation and repair.

[00:04:59]
With the body produces, uh, you know, a lot of cells, a lot of scaffolding to build. So, in other words, you start building the beginning of the process of repair and so on. And then the, and then when that is done and actually heals properly, then it goes into CDR three, right, where everything is actually reintegrated, uh, and and and, uh, in a fully functioning system.

[00:05:27]
So, this is actually mirrored, and this is a very, very much fun for me because I love mitochondria, right? Uh, like for example, when you're looking at stage one, the the the mitochondria are fragmented. Like they they go, "Well, fuck you, I'm not going to share my energy with you, whoever you are, invader. Right? I'm going to decrease my my my, uh, my, uh, uh, energy output, you know, because I am not going to to let you take charge of this and actually use up this energy.

[00:05:57]
So, it's a it's a defense mechanism, right? Uh, the mitochondria, uh, does. And then the second thing that the mitochondria does and that's why it's the center of all of this, that it's like is that it actually releases, um, uh, ATP.

[00:06:11]
So, inside the cell, you know, people have an imbalanced view of mitochondria. They think it's only the batteries for your cell, but actually, that the mito the the mitochondria when when they're actually stressed out, what they do is that they release ATP. And that ATP now, the release outside the cell, becomes basically a danger signal.

[00:06:35]
It will warn the cells via saying, "Hey, hey, hey, you know, there's there's a stressor going on, right? My X is coming to visit or something like that. So, but but anyway, uh, so that's what's called purinergic signaling, right? Because...

[00:06:51] Boomer Anderson: Help me, help me.

[00:06:54] Dr. Ted Achacoso:
Because it's it's it's already Thanksgiving and God damn it, my enlightenment is going to get tested. So, um, so you're you're you're basically looking at it, uh, and that's the second because is the mitochondria is a biosensor. The second part, it's very reliant on purinergic signaling, right?

[00:07:09]
Outside the cell, the ATP becomes a warning. It's just like a flare, right? It's like warning to all cells there's stress going on, right? And the body is actually to to convert it now to to ATP to to AMP and then adenosine, which now coils that uh that that flare for you, right?

[00:07:29]
Uh, and that's why, in his experiments, the the classic experiments that he actually said there was, they use of suramin, which is an anti-purinergic in all these cases, right? And he presents uh those uh in in the paper, also.

[00:07:45]
So, if you look at it take a look at mitochondrion stage two, so, it's its proliferative stage about repairing. They're non-committal, right? So, in in the first one, they're called a stage what's called M1, right? And and for those mitochondrial geeks out there, there's M1. They're like they're fragmented and cetera.

[00:07:58]
There's M0 which is basically non-committal. Yeah, yeah, we're proliferating, so we're just dividing and dividing and then putting it into all these different cells that has to to to to function, right? Because you destroyed a lot of them.

[00:08:11]
And then the, and then the, so, and then the, so, and then the mitochondrion on stand on CDR three becomes, you know, uh, M2, right? And M2 is that fully filamentous, producing oxidative phosphorylation, and so on.

[00:08:24]
So, so here is here's like the difference that this is beautiful, because it's sequential, and it actually, for me, guides the clinician on what you can do and cannot do during these stages, right?

[00:08:35]
So, uh, for example, uh, what what is the most interesting for me is that a clinician when looking at these different, uh, stages, right? Of course, there are no, there are no specific, uh, indicators that will tell you, "Oh, he's, he's at, uh, the stage is, he's caught at this particular, uh, uh, a stage, right? Of the CDR resolution.

[00:09:00]
So, in the cell danger response, what is important for the clinician is like, where is your patient or your client stuck?

[00:09:08]
Right? It's, it because it's like this sequential, uh, uh, process will actually, you know, naturally run its course. But what usually happens is that it gets stuck. So, what happens when you're stuck at CDR one, what happens when you're stuck at CDR two, what happens to you when you're stuck at CDR three?

[00:09:27]
And I actually, it begs the question, right? What can you do to actually, uh, uh, you know, optimize the resolution of those particular stages? And the other thing that has to be asked also, it's like what should you not fucking do, right? Uh, in, in those particular, uh, stages?

[00:09:46]
And, you know, Jodi will be taking care of, you know, what you are, you can, uh, probably look at, and when you're stuck at different stages, but an example that I can give is that, you know, in CDR one, for example, when you're stuck in in there, right? The body, the the cell is actually saying, "I am going to purposefully decrease my oxidative phosphorylation, right?

[00:10:04]
So, I am not going to produce energy for you guys, you know. It's it's like, "No, it is it is like, "my energy is going to be sent out and warn others, right? The ATP is a going to be the production. And then, what do you do, right? Like it that the cell is producing reactive oxygen species, you know, to bump up the inflammation, and this is to fight, right? To for defense.

[00:10:25]
And then what you do, "Oh, let me give you a lot more antioxidants. Well, the cell says, "Fuck you. You're not helping me here, you know. I am I am I am actually trying to help defend myself with lots of oxidation, right? And that's why, for example, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, for example, would be good for for CDR one, when you're stuck in in CDR one, because it actually helps fight the the the the condition, right?

[00:10:48]
But it's it's not and we already talked about Methylene Blue earlier, too, right? And, potentially.

[00:10:52]
Yeah, essentially.

[00:10:53]
Yeah, so, uh, you you when you yeah, when when you when you when you give Methylene Blue, of course, it will try to rev up your electron production, right? No, you give Methylene Blue when you're you're stuck in in CDR three, right? So, uh, but remember, this is a sequential mode. But your body, the different cells of your body, and this is the, the complicated part, can be stuck in different parts of this, right?

[00:11:15]
So, now we can hear from Jodi what happens when you're stuck in this because this is what the clinician she to remember is like, "How what what what do you see when you're stuck in any of these stages? And how do you unstick them, right? How do you unstick them, right? And what should you not do to unstick them, right? Uh, which is, uh...

[00:11:32] Boomer Anderson:
Yeah. Let's first, I want to take this in terms of like phenotype, right? And, Jodi, you see this coming into your clinic often, when you, when a client presents them, as has a whole bunch of stories, whatever. How do you identify just sort of different stages of the CDR and, you know, what does that kind of look like for you as a clinician, in terms of what you can do?

[00:11:57] Jodi Duval:
So, I think it's also good to understand it from the point of view of, um, when we're sick as well. So, when we're looking at, you know, fevers and, um, when we're in that sort of prime defense mode, as Dr. Ted was saying, I think it's, it's it's for me, it's a better understanding when we understand like the evolutionary point of view of why we actually got into that fever. It's primary defense.

[00:12:18]
And so, what we do wrong in those stages is the point of interacting or or um intervening too early. And I think that is particularly true for CDR one. Um, and like you were saying, Ted, it's, it's defense. So, what I see in these clients, particularly is that they're inflamed, their CRP or hsCRP is up, their ESR is up. They have, um, higher lactate, so we can measure this in the organic acids, we've got histamine patterns and lower, um, you know, heart rate variability as well.

[00:12:51]
They have headaches, skin flares, um, brain fog, um, they're overly they're they're overwhelmed, they're really sensitive, um, and the body is crying out to be supported and not be restricted. Um, be supported to to signal correctly, to work with what it can see and to eventually lead into that CDR three in resolution.

[00:13:16]
So, when I see, um, clients, mainly in CDR one, like you were saying, Ted, I think the most important part that they do wrong is, is by either fasting, um, under-nourishing, by adding too many antioxidants, by actually trying to quell a process or put the fire out before the fire had a chance to do what it needs to do.

[00:13:36]
And so, these are the most important parts I see in, in clients. And so, sometimes I celebrate some of the reactions that they get, because you know that there is been a start again to the process of resolution. And so, you know, sometimes they get stuck into, um, CDR two, and then you actually have to go back to CDR one again to then get back into the resolution pathway.

[00:13:56]
And so, that's where I, I find it can be quite, um, uh, exciting for clients when they are like, "Oh, I feel achy and sore and inflamed, and I've had a flare up of my skin again, I'm like, "Great, we're back to this process and let's complete this now, let's complete this cycle.

[00:14:14] Boomer Anderson:
It's a just like such a good point to emphasize, right? Is that sometimes the reaction is actually a good thing. Uh, and because oftentimes, as clinicians, uh, and particularly, uh, you have a client who might want to be on all the time and, you know, they have this sort of flare-up, this reaction, those types of things that you just highlighted, and as a result, they think it's a completely negative and they might have, bit, see it as like a failure in their health optimization journey, particularly types of people that I do it.

[00:14:43]
Whereas, this is actually showing you the sign that the body is responding correctly, right? And I think just such a key point that I wanted to re-emphasize there.

[00:14:53] Dr. Ted Achacoso:
Well, uh, that actually, uh, sorry, Jodi. I just wanted to, to piggyback on what Boomer said because, you know, as I said, we view things differently in Home Hope, and, uh, I was just proposing really, uh, the way you look at diseases, are these are just like the phenotypes of stalled CDR, uh, stage, right?

[00:15:15]
So, for example, if you're looking like an asthma, you know, or or, uh, flu-like malaise, or all of those kinds of things, these are just phenotypes of a stalled CDR one, right? So, uh, so that's how we look at diseases. They're adaptations, but they're maladaptations. So, diseases are not independent entities of themselves, but rather become like a stalled phenotype of a cell danger response.

[00:16:19] Jodi Duval:
Yeah, so, uh, from that CDR one point of view, and for all of them actually, for the stages, you, you your questions that you have to ask is, well, what does the body need at this particular time? What does it, what, what is it requiring of us? Um, and I think they're really important questions that we ask. It's not always, um, "what do I give? or "what do I supplement? or, "what do I need to add in? sometimes we actually need to remove.

[00:17:28]
And that's where I think, you know, even when we're looking at EMF and anything else that is destabilizing the nervous system and, you know, for this CDR one aspect, we need to actually look at the nervous system and supporting it, so, it has, um, time and space to actually repair, you know, to go into that repair, you know, rest, digest and repair, needs to be into that stage one to then go into that completion for the stage three.

[00:17:52]
So, yeah, that that stage one, um, I see repeating often in clinic, um, without actually coming through into even the stage two and three. But then, in stage two, or in CDR two, we see a lot of the chron- chronic complex, sort of plateauing patients, and this is where, um, you know, you see a huge shift in the, in the microbiome, the dysbiosis, we see hormonal patterning, we see weight resistance, you know, MCAS and fatigue and this, you know, fibrotic conditions.

[00:18:27]
And the big thing is this is this, the big thing, Jo, is this is proliferative cancers, right? This is the work of, the work of, of Dr. Sifried, right? Uh, in terms of, uh, you of, basically, uh, quelling the Warburg effect, right? By by using ketones, uh, for example.

[00:19:07] Jodi Duval:
And I think, so many, uh, yeah, so many people within the population fit into this CDR two, um, stalling. And that's what's scary. I feel like you could go, um, for years and years and years and years within this particular CDR two and not have, um, any, any diagnoses or any corrections. And that's a very dangerous place to be.

[00:19:44]
And so, you know, moving on, so we don't sort of, hold, hold up the podcast, but, but stage three or or CDR three, you know, you're looking for more of that, it's completion, it's like the body's gone, "Yes, I've gone through the cycle, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, I am almost there, I am reaching resolution here.

[00:20:15]
And so, so what we're looking at here is mitochondrial efficiency, adaptive capacity, we're looking at anti-inflammatory, so we're looking at all the signaling that is that should be working and correcting and be stable and resilient and more responsive, so you're seeing, um, you know, little bits of, of, of positive movements forward in your, in your clients, in your patients.

[00:20:47] Dr. Ted Achacoso:
I was actually going to mention that this is, this is stone CDR, is where hormone balancing does a lot of its magic, right? If you could, it's so and that's why you see a, patients or clients that have, you know, chronic diseases, like a chronic heart disease, you know, uh, uh, uh cognitive decline, and all of these, uh, other, uh, chronic diseases, uh, diabetes and so on.

[00:21:12]
This is all, this all, this all fall in a stalled CDR two. And that's why it's important for the clinician, to actually know, what gets, what, what happens when something stalls, right? Uh, so, and, you know, a gym instructor, say, "now, you got to push." It's like, "what the fuck, you know, I don't even have energy."

[00:21:26]
Because your, your patient or client's actually stalled in CDR three. It's very important to know where your patient's stalled, and then, now, what you can do, uh, to, to, to use it. And the other thing that's, has to be asked also, it's like what should you not, fucking do, right? Uh, in, in those particular, uh, stages?

[00:21:44]
And, you know, Jodi will be taking care of, you know, what you are, you can, uh, probably look at, and when you're stuck at different stages, but an example that I can give is that, you know, in CDR one, for example, when you're stuck in in there, right? The body, the the cell is actually saying, "I am going to purposefully decrease my oxidative phosphorylation, right?

[00:22:04]
So, I am not going to produce energy for you guys, you know. It's it's like, "No, it is it is like, "my energy is going to be sent out and warn others, right? The ATP is a going to be the production. And then, what do you do, right? Like it that the cell is producing reactive oxygen species, you know, to bump up the inflammation, and this is to fight, right? To for defense.

[00:22:25]
And then what you do, "Oh, let me give you a lot more antioxidants. Well, the cell says, "Fuck you. You're not helping me here, you know. I am I am I am actually trying to help defend myself with lots of oxidation, right? And that's why, for example, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, for example, would be good for for CDR one, when you're stuck in in CDR one, because it actually helps fight the the the the condition, right?

[00:22:47] Boomer Anderson:
If you're on fire, you don't cook dinner at the same time, right?

[00:22:52] Dr. Ted Achacoso:
No. And, you know, the cells are both a digital and analog system, but it's mostly analog, because everything is done by by the cytosol, right? Uh, so, uh, so they these are things that are a really, uh, are helpful for the clinician, where your stall, you know, CDR one, with cost of inflammation, if you're you can get stalled in there, CDR two will cost proliferation, if you're stalled in there, CDR three, would actually, uh, cost you, uh, decreased energy, right?

[00:23:08]
Uh, if you're the there and able to, to move forward. So, you could see there, that, uh, each of this is actually on geared towards surviving an attack, whether the attack is physical, uh, chemical, uh, infectious, or, uh, or, uh, psycho-emotional, right?

[00:23:25]
So, so, you could see there that, uh, all of this I, I, the the important thing about this as Jodi actually said, is that the body does this in sequence. You cannot skip a step, right? Uh, and then when you're stalled in one, you already mentioned, like, "Oh, holy shit, I can't get you back, let me bring you back to to to stage one, and let's do this all over again.

[00:23:44]
So, uh, and and and, and and that's now, you know, and that's now the hallmark of a master health optimizer, like Jodi, right? So, to is like, okay, you know, that it worked, let's do it this way, because we now know what the pathways are, in terms of how the the the, uh, uh, cell protected itself. Remember, this is a survival mechanism, right?

[00:24:03]
The the two fitness functions of for us, in evolution, is survive and reproduce, and as I always say, reproduction is just another form of survival. So, when you're looking at this, you're looking at the cell actually trying to defend itself from something, or trying to survive.

[00:24:19]
If you are, the the main picture here is, imagine a a child that's cowering from fear over some whipping that it's taking, right? And then you say, "Here, eat some chocolate." No, the child won't eat it, right? It's because like, "no, the child won't eat it," right? It's because like, "no, no, no, no, no, I have to, to make sure that this person who is whipping me goes away first."

[00:24:43]
Right? So, so and and that's the way you take a look at this. It's you have to remove the threat first. And the threat is usually, um, uh, in the exposome, that includes your, I said, your relationship with toxic people is part of your exposome.

[00:25:12] Boomer Anderson:
All right, uh, Jodi, Dr. Ted, thank you so much for joining us here tonight. This has been another episode of the Health Optimization Medicine podcast, soon to be named the Cell Danger Response podcast, maybe? I don't know.

[00:25:35]
Uh, but, for those of you tuning in tonight or this day, wherever you're watching this, uh, please, if you're watching this on YouTube, click like, subscribe, or leave a comment. Let us know what you think. Other episodes you want us to kind of dive into is also appreciated.

[00:26:01]
If you're listening to this on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, uh, get some five star rating and a comment please, because those things go a long way in this algorithmic world. To everybody listening, always, choose health. Thank you.

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