Veronika Gold | Using Ketamine to Unlock Inner Healing

In this episode of the Smarter Not Harder Podcast, Veronika Gold gives us one-cent solutions to life’s $64,000 questions that include:

• How does ketamine-assisted psychotherapy differ from traditional talk therapy for depression and anxiety?

• What are the key safety considerations and contraindications for people exploring psychedelic or ketamine therapy?

• In what ways does combining psychotherapy with psychedelic medicine improve long-term healing outcomes?

• How do set, setting, and integration influence the effectiveness of ketamine or psychedelic-assisted sessions?

• What is the future of trauma healing and mental-health care in the era of psychedelic medicine?

Who is Veronika Gold?

Veronika Gold is a licensed psychotherapist and psychologist originally from the Czech Republic, where she was first introduced to transpersonal psychology and holotropic breathwork at the age of 16 under the influence of Stanislav Grof’s teachings. Her early exposure to these practices inspired her lifelong exploration of expanded states of consciousness and their therapeutic potential.

After moving to the United States in 2003 to study at the California Institute of Integral Studies, Veronika continued her work in trauma healing, somatic psychotherapy, and consciousness studies. She later became a MAPS-trained therapist in MDMA-assisted psychotherapy and has been a pioneer in the clinical application of ketamine-assisted psychotherapy (KAP).

Veronika is the co-founder of Polaris Insight Center in San Francisco, where she and her team offer ketamine-assisted psychotherapy, group programs, and professional training for therapists, physicians, and spiritual leaders. Her work integrates medical, psychological, and transpersonal paradigms, emphasizing safety, integration, and the innate human capacity for healing.

What did Veronika and Boomer discuss?

00:00 Intro: Reflections on Collaboration and Healing

01:22 Veronika’s first meeting with Stanislav Grof at age 16

04:12 From breathwork to psychedelics: Veronika’s healing journey

08:00 Early influences and entering the world of ketamine therapy

12:10 What ketamine does — and how it’s different from other psychedelics

15:50 Who should and shouldn’t use ketamine

18:30 Ketamine for trauma, anxiety, and self-love

21:00 Why therapy makes psychedelics more powerful

24:40 The body keeps the score — somatic therapy with psychedelics

27:40 Inner healing, intelligence, and non-linear breakthroughs

30:00 A walkthrough of the ketamine therapy experience

35:20 Integration: what happens after the session

40:40 Building Polaris: a clinic and training center for ketamine therapy

44:10 Veronika’s biggest concern about the psychedelic movement

47:30 What excites her about the future of psychedelic healing

52:00 Rapid-fire: ketamine benefits and smarter-not-harder advice

Full Transcript:

Veronika Gold: [00:00:00] Really there is like, I feel it's a, it's a, it's like an urgency that we need to support each other and bring more healing and it doesn't belong to any one person. So I think the, the, and that there is so many people who need help and support and so I think that's where I think the collaboration and sharing is, is important because in a lot of times the opposite comes from fear.

Sense of scarcity and the desire for power, money control.

Boomer Anderson: All right, Veronica Gold. Welcome to the Smarter Not Harder podcast. Thanks for joining us today. 

Veronika Gold: Thank you. Excited to be here. 

Boomer Anderson: So I, I've come to know you over the years, actually just [00:01:00] meeting in person for the first time, uh, only recently at, uh, Una's event. But wanna give everybody a, a sense of just your background here for a moment and how you got in this to this space.

Right. Um, many people listening to this are gonna be familiar with the name Stanis Groff, and. You've had the pleasure of training underneath him or with him over the years, and I, I would love to hear a little bit more about that experience and how, how you came to that moment. 

Veronika Gold: Yeah. So I, um, actually met Stan when I was, um.

Just 16 years old. So it's, it's, it's kind of, uh, uh, surprising to me just kind of thinking about myself as a 16-year-old going to a conference on, on, um, uh, transpersonal, um, psychology and, and, and met him and it was. Very inspired. And you 

Boomer Anderson: went to a conference, sorry to interrupt, but you went to a conference on transpersonal psychology at the age of [00:02:00] 16.

Veronika Gold: Yeah. So it was, you know, after the, the, the, the, the revolution happened and there was a change, you know, and, and, and kind of, I grew up in Czech Republic, so after the communism there was just so much, um, openness and curiosity. And so this, this transpersonal conference was in Prague and, um. My friends told me about it, and, and we went And so Stan talk and, and then he was offering ho tropic breath work.

So I, I went to Ho Tropic Breath work workshop and, um. Then over the years I had different interactions with Stan. I, you know, it wasn't that like I wasn't studying under him directly, but I did some of the trainings in holotropic breath work and did, um, a lot of, lot of workshops and, and worked with.

Other psychologists and therapists who were trained by Stan. And it was also, he was the reason [00:03:00] why I moved to the United States in, in 2003. Uh, he was teaching at California Institute of Integral Studies. So I, I applied to that school and, uh, studied there and, and had more interactions with him until, um, he, he, he moved back to Europe.

Few years ago. 

Boomer Anderson: So when it comes to somebody with a, where do, where does the interest in, like in, in psychology come from? Because, you know, you're 16 years old and I can remember myself as a 16-year-old. All I cared about was like sports and maybe just trying to get a, a girl to say yes to me on a date.

But you're interested in psychology. What made you interested in psychology at that age? 

Veronika Gold: It's a great question. You know, it, it, it sometimes just things happen in life that they kind of come together and, you know, I think there was just that, um, like restriction of, of information and, and, and [00:04:00] knowledge and books that, uh, were not available in communism.

And, um, then after the revolution. You know, didn't have any books at school because a lot of them were, um, just made up. And so we, you know, there was, um, a lot of excitement and, and, and people were, you know, bringing books and information and reading. And, um, so at that time, uh, Stan came back and he did a holotropic breath breathwork training for facilitators in, in Czech Republic, because that's, that was his home country.

And, um. And, you know, I think one of my friends taught, uh, was familiar with LSD. And he, he talked about LSD psychotherapy and how these, these medicines were, were used for, uh, healing and transformation. And he, he found out about holotropic breast work and STEM graft. And, and that's kind of when we, when we found out he was coming and we, we went to that [00:05:00] conference and so, you know, there was the interest and then, um.

Doing holotropic breath work, it really opened up a lot for me. And so there was, um, processing a lot of grief that was from, um, you know, growing up in communism, growing up with, um, uh, you know, just multiple challenges. And so that there was this unprocessed grief that I was holding and, and that kind of opened up in the psych, in the, in the, uh, holotropic breath work.

And then I, I was interested in, um, you know, kind of that, that concept of psychedelics helping with mental health and then also saw, um, the challenges with non, uh, psychedelic drugs and, and, and people were struggling with misuse of and, and addictions. And so I worked in, in, or I started volunteering in this center for people who were struggling with non-ACO alcohol.

[00:06:00] Substance misuse and um, and so that kind of continued to evolve and, and deepen my, my interest in, in psychology and psychotherapy. 

Boomer Anderson: Okay. So you have the, the center, this exposure to I, I guess. Would it, would it be fair to describe them as sort of non-alcoholic substance related addictions? And, you know, uh, I, I'd be curious.

So you mentioned LSD and, you know, psychedelics and sort of the background and, you know, Stanislav GR of course has those two holotropic breath work and LSD connected. But where did the, because you built out this wide knowledge of. Both the indigenous plants and some of the other molecules. And so how did you start building that knowledge?

Because it's, for somebody listening to this, like a lot of what's available are just online trip reports or whatever, like where were the kind of sources that you turned to, uh, to start [00:07:00] building this knowledge in this field? 

Veronika Gold: So it, it was sharing, sharing of, of friends, colleagues. So at that time, and, uh, when, um.

Borders opened. A lot of my older colleagues would go to Amazon, would sit with Ayahuasca, would be coming back and, and sharing about their experiences and um, and. And reading books. And, um, really the interest, I, I was involved a lot with the ho tropic breath work and with this center that was for personal growth and transformation.

And there were teaching a lot of shamanic practices, uh, which were non medicine related, but worked with, with the states. And, um, and then, so my interest continued. So I was, you know, meeting different, different people, different teachers over the years. And um, also then when I moved to United States, I [00:08:00] met, uh, a Peruvian healer, Tito La Rosa, who did a lot of ceremonies with sound, sound journey, sound ceremonies.

So, got, got quite familiar with, uh, that culture. But it wasn't until, um, you know, 2016 when I was able to start working with, with, with these medicines. You know, I became a psychotherapist, psychologist, and then psychotherapist, and I was working with, um, people who, who had experiences of holotropic breath work or who worked with other psychedelic medicines, um, um, and.

I applied to, to work with maps as a, as a therapist. I think I applied in 2009 and then was accepted to be therapist in 2016. So there just has been like a years of, um, finding different connections and, and, and sharing 

Boomer Anderson: and, and so what do we know about these various substances? And we can feel free [00:09:00] to go down.

You mentioned, um, you know. Some of your colleagues going to Ayahuasca and to the jungle and and sitting ceremony there. What, what's exactly known about these substances? Because I don't, uh, for anybody listening to this, uh, what we don't wanna make is the assumption that like, Hey, you're listening to this and you're all of a sudden a a au, right?

Like, we want to make sure that. People are comfortable with this conversation because, um, there are, there's a lot, particularly in the United States, but everywhere, a lot of dogma around psychedelics and sort of how, what the Nixon administration essentially did. Um, and you know, I remember being a child of dare, right?

So I would go to school and have the DARE officers come and tell me that drugs are evil, um, and to a certain extent that they are right for younger people. But, um. What do we know about these substances? And, you know, maybe we can go through a few of [00:10:00] these and just demonstrate their efficacy and, uh, you know, safety.

Veronika Gold: Yes, there is, there is a huge impact of the war on drugs and these, these information, you know, I didn't grow up with death, but I, since I've, you know. Left Czech Republic seeing these commercials of, of, you know, the fried eggs and this is your brain on drugs. 

Boomer Anderson: Oh, that's the one I remember specifically all the time.

Veronika Gold: So it's, it's terrifying. You know, a lot of people who, um, come to, to, to, to working with, with me and, and we'll talk about later, I work with ketamine there, there are a lot of fears that are still kind of going back to the war on drugs. And, and so there is this, the, you know, I feel like the, what has been called like psychedelic revolution or this new wave of information where we are really getting, uh, more accurate information about these, uh, substances.

And [00:11:00] I think about MS as tools. To access this expanded state of consciousness, uh, you know, we can say in an ordinary state of consciousness, um, you know, in the past lot of times people will say altered states of consciousness. So that is something that, um, helps to kind of expand the, the normal, uh, way of perceiving reality, the, the normal way how our brain works so that we are kind of moving out of this default mode network and, um.

People have greater access to their own inner world as well as, um, external world. And, and, um, you know, states of growth talked about the, the cartography of the mind, which is a way of describing these different levels of consciousness that we can start accessing. With these ordinary states and that, you know, as, as, as, as I mentioned, they, [00:12:00] they could be through holotropic breast work or traumatic practices, but also, uh, through the use of these, these psychedelic medicines and that there are, um.

Different, like many, many different plans, uh, different, uh, manufactured, uh, psychedelics that 

Boomer Anderson: I certainly didn't give you an easy question. We can go down, why don't we pick one and just sort of focus on that first. Um, and you can choose whatever one you want. 

Veronika Gold: Yeah. So, you know, like, uh, um, maybe talking about, um.

Ketamine is, is, is, is one that is, um, you know, legally available. So in, in, in a way that is what is most accessible to, um, people in, in the United States and around the world. And, um, and it is, it is, it is interesting medicine. It's, it's a, it's called associative anesthetic. That's how it's classified. [00:13:00] And, uh, it was originally approved for anesthesia and it's, it's used for anesthesia widely.

So we have a lot of experience, uh, with ketamine and having, having a safety, uh, profile, but. As they were developing it, they, they, they found is what they, what they call the emergence phenomena, which is, as people were coming out of the, the, the anesthesia, they would share these experiences they they've had, which would be these experiences of, um, uh.

These other, other states of consciousness. And it could be from, uh, you know, person having experience of their own birth to remembering parts of trauma that they didn't remember before to more transpersonal experiences like, um, uh, archetypal experiences or, um. Experiences that, that, that, that, that were maybe of their parents or their ancestors, but they were able to access them through, through this medicine.

And so that [00:14:00] became, uh, an interest for psychologists and psychiatrists and started studying ketamine for, uh, for use in, in mental health treatment. And so, um. Now we, we can work with ketamine in, in these different, um, paradigms. So there is the medical paradigm, uh, where we are looking at it as a, as a, uh, the neuro biochemical action of ketamine.

But then we have the psychological paradigm where the substance is used to lubricate the psychotherapeutic process. So it allows to deepen the, the, the therapy that, that, that is already the client is engaged in. And it also can be used in, in the transpersonal paradigm where, um, we believe that going to these deeper expanded states is crucial for the healing and transformation.

And so, so there, the, [00:15:00] the ketamine is, is, it becomes similar to some of the more classic psychedelics. So that, um, you know, when we think about mushrooms or. LSD, where, um, uh, there are a lot of visions and internal vision and internal journeys that, um, kind of can be similar in that transpersonal paradigm.

Boomer Anderson: Ketamine is a particularly interesting one to go down and, uh, I guess le. For somebody who's coming to this, perhaps we'll start with the negative and move to the positive. And they're listening to this conversation and they're kind of wondering, you know, is this for me or is this not for me? Is there any particular population where we can definitively say like, Hey, you probably shouldn't use these medicines now, or, and we focus specifically on ketamine.

Um, you probably shouldn't use ketamine now. But maybe [00:16:00] later, are there particular types of, uh, you know, conditions or people that should probably avoid these types of things? 

Veronika Gold: Yeah, yeah. And so, so exactly as you're saying, there is, uh, contraindications for, for all of these, these medicines and that while they can be very helpful and I am.

Advocate for doing it with, with a provider, with a guide, with a therapist who can provide support during that experience. Uh, there are contraindications for, for all of them and, and, uh, this ketamine and, and, and, and, and other medicines. Uh, somebody who has history of, of psychosis or, uh, for example, has bipolar depression and, and, um.

Is in a hypomanic or manic state and, uh, or have, uh, bipolar depression, but are not on stabilizing medications. Um, so there are some of [00:17:00] these, these, these psychological contraindications, uh, people who. Have history of psychotic disorders, schizophrenia, uh, if they have that history in their family, it's, it's not, um, exclusion, but it's, it's an orange flag to be, um, you know, mindful of it.

And then. They're medical contraindications. So usually if you're looking at, at heart, kidney, liver issues, um, but ketamine is, is is actually one of the psychedelics that has less contraindications that, uh, than some of the, the other medicines. 

Boomer Anderson: Mm-hmm. So for instance, you know, the other ones I'm guessing you're referring to, like people on SSRIs probably shouldn't use, uh, keep going like LSD for example.

Um. On. So then we went negative. Now we'll go positive. Uh, you know, there's a whole population that that [00:18:00] really needs to be educated as to like why they might want to seek out ketamine. And there's a few researchers out there talking about treatment resistant depression. But what other. Reasons might somebody want to explore, uh, ketamine therapy.

Veronika Gold: So we have now a lot of, a lot of research, um, you know, on depression, but also anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder. Um, there's research being done on, on addictions and eating disorders and. I think we have to bring in the paradigms of treatment. And so there is a medical paradigm where we have a lot of these studies, which kind of show us the symptom reduction after the treatment.

Uh, but then, uh, in the psychological paradigm, it really can help people to get kind of unstuck from where in, in the therapy where they have been. It allows them, uh, kind of a spaciousness [00:19:00] from, um. You know, their patterns, their life, the way they're feeling, and kind of have this maybe like a bird's eye view on, on their life and their experiences so they can start, uh, changing the relationship to themselves and to the challenges they have in their life.

Um, a lot of people are, are coming who are struggling with self-acceptance, self-love, um, you know, struggling with negative beliefs. Um. Ways they're stuck in relationships. So I think these, these, these ways that we would traditionally think about going to psychotherapy can, um, you know, be supported by working with ketamine.

And, and, and, you know, I also think it's, uh, um, it can be really helpful for self-discovery and, um. Kind of optimizing one's life and, and personal development. And that's, [00:20:00] you know, we don't have a lot of studies on, on, on, on Dad, because that's. 

Boomer Anderson: Quite hard to do studies on optimization, you know, or get funding for it at least, so, 

Veronika Gold: mm, mm-hmm.

Boomer Anderson: Um, I, I wanna explore more of the, because you brought up talk therapy, right? And I, I think, and from my own self, um, have used talk therapy before, but have found the combinations of. We'll focus this on ketamine. 'cause I, I, I have used ketamine in the past using ketamine in conjunction with therapy to have this, this multiplier effect in a sense of effectiveness of what I was after, which was along the lines of that self-discovery component, self love.

But the, uh. What about the talk therapy or, or the co The combination of therapy plus the medicine makes it so effective. Why? Why? [00:21:00] Why is that and why? 'cause you see a lot of these, sorry, going on and rant here for a second. You see a lot of, particularly like in my own town, you see these ketamine clinics where you go, you get your IV and then you leave.

Right? Um, is there benefit to that and. And, and maybe on top of that, why does the therapy add so much more value? 

Veronika Gold: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, you know, we know from just research that any type of medication when you add psychotherapy. It is more beneficial. So we know it in, in, you know, other psychiatric medications like SSRI or anti-anxiety, you know, medications.

Um, and so this, that's kind of a shift in that paradigm because when you're looking at medication, you're looking at, uh, symptom reduction. And that, that's oftentimes very immediate. So they might do the infusion or they might get the, the, the ketamine treatment [00:22:00] and they, they measure their symptoms just, you know, maybe right after or a week or two after.

And then it's something that people oftentimes have to take repeatedly. And so when we are bringing psychotherapy, we are actually looking for resolving the underlying issues we are looking for. Um. Kind of bringing this, this, this personal self discovery and. I think about therapy as this longer term treatment where the psychedelic medicine is more of a shorter term intervention, and it might be with ketamine that, you know, a lot of times people come to treatment.

They, they, you know, they're in psychotherapy, but then they do like a series of in more intensive sessions with ketamine and they, they do as needed or, you know, kind of like spacing out the sessions more. But at the same time, their process is held with the therapist over that [00:23:00] period. So you know, as well as they're coming for sessions more frequently, like once or twice a week, and then maybe they're coming once a month, but they're still engaging in psychotherapy every week.

And the the therapist also helps with the integration with. Looking at the material that, that emerged in the sessions and, and helps the client to stay kind of accountable to the, the, the changes they, they want to make in their life or the support, uh, you know, the unfolding process. Um, I think that there, that, you know, we, we, there is like these, these two sides that, you know, sometimes there can be really beautiful experiences and we can heal and change through these, these, these positive experiences.

And sometimes they're challenging experiences and it's, uh, really helpful to have someone who understands the terrain that can be a guide [00:24:00] and help clients to, to maybe. Change that challenging, or they could call negative experience into something that actually was really worth it and really important, because that's kind of where the, the, the, the, the, the gold nuggets kind of came from.

Boomer Anderson: Yeah. 

Veronika Gold: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, there is different types of talk therapy. Uh, so it's also, you know, I think there's some that are more compatible with psychedelic medicine than others. Um, 

Boomer Anderson: can you, can you give an example there? I'm curious. 

Veronika Gold: Yeah. Yeah. So I think like a, like a relational therapy, which is, um, um, uh, you know, focused on the relationship and kind of seeing the patterns that are emerging is really compatible.

Uh, then somatic therapies. So, you know, working with either this touch, but also with your somatic awareness, um, I think is, is is key or crucial when we work with psychedelics because, uh, a lot of the experience is not processed through [00:25:00] one's brain. It's kind of in the body. The heart. So the medicine kind of brings the person out of their mind and their, uh, like the, the, the, the, the process, the healing can happen through the experience itself.

When we, we kind of, uh, best van's book body Keeps the score really points us to, there is a lot that's stored in the body. So somatic therapies like hack me Somatic experiencing sensory motor therapy. And, you know, other, other, uh, touch methods can be really supportive. Um, therapies like act, um, uh, internal family systems have been, um, helpful.

Uh, you know, I think less helpful might be something like prolonged exposure or, um, cognitive behavioral therapy, which are much more structured therapies that, you know, are helpful and people, uh, benefit from them. But it's, it's almost like a little bit opposite to what happens in psychedelic [00:26:00] sessions where we are kind of allowing the process to unfold and are not bringing so much structure like you might find in some of these other therapies.

Boomer Anderson: And so one thing you hinted at there that I, um, was, uh, with the book, the Body Keeps the Score and others is this idea of hidden, um. I, I guess, let me phrase it as a question. When a client comes to you, how many times do, do you eventually arrive at, you know, the underlying issue being far different from what was the initial concern?

Right? And so somebody shows up at your door and says, Hey, I'm stressed. I wanna get rid of my anxiety. And you know, what does. That discovery, and this is one of the things I've found fascinating about these medicines, uh, particularly ketamine, uh, you know, how many times does that sort of unveil itself in the experience rather than having to talk through it for years and years and years?

Veronika Gold: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. [00:27:00] There, there, there is a, you know, and sometimes, sometimes it's what the person sings they're coming for and what the, what the, um, kind of root cause is. And, and sometimes it's. Really different that it's part of this self-discovery that, um, uh, happens through the process. And, you know, the, the, the, the principle here is the, the, you know, the concept of this is, is being discussed and there are different names, but it's.

This innate capacity to heal or this inner healing intelligence or this, this wisdom that we all carry. That the, the, the, the medicine session creates this optimal setting, setting optimal conditions for. The, the healing to happen. And so we, you know, when I am working with a client, I'm stepping out of the role of the expert, um, you know, where I might have some idea like, what do healing looks like or what are the things we need to [00:28:00] process like a, um, you know, EMDR therapist as well, where we, you know, create these kind of plans, what we gonna process and target.

And here in these medicine sessions we. We kind of allow what wants to come up to come up and, and that kind of leads to these new understandings, new explorations. Uh, that might be that their, their experiences that the person knows, but did not realize how they were connected to, uh, the struggle they're having today.

Um, there are memories that they have not remembered, and sometimes it's, uh, it's, it comes from. Transgenerational or collective trauma and, and, and, and so being able to access and process that, um, can become very meaningful. And, and, and then, and then changing, changing the symptoms or the challenges the person is struggling with.[00:29:00] 

Boomer Anderson: Uh, one thing you mentioned there was set and setting right? And, uh, as part of, you know. The therapy experience, you're, you're taking a molecule and, and actually maybe Veronica, if you can take us through just sort of a therapy experience because, uh, you mentioned set and setting and I, I think there's an important thing there about how important.

Where you are, what you are, what mind state you're in, matters for these, these resolutions. But do you mind just taking us through what, like a typical experience would I I Typical air quotes right. Um, what that would look like. 

Veronika Gold: Yeah. Yeah. And so usually the process starts with, with the intake process that we mm-hmm.

The person goes through the intake and then goes through preparation sessions where we, um. One part is getting information about the client, their resources, their ways of supporting themselves, how uh, they will be able to, to [00:30:00] process, um, you know, with, with our help or with their therapists help, uh, when difficult things come up.

And. Teaching them about the, the, the principles of this work. And I think about it also that it's, it's like a disruptive treatment. These states are inviting change to happen and, and so oftentimes there can be even increase of symptoms before there is a symptom reduction because maybe there is a, a, a memory of.

Some, some childhood incident that the person didn't remember, and now when it comes back, they're, uh, are processing the, the pain of that and, and, and, um, you know, so that they might feel worse before they feel better. And, uh, and then we arrive to the place where we, you know, I feel the decline is ready.

The client feels they're ready for the medicine session and the, the setting that, um. [00:31:00] We work in is, is is very comfortable, you know, therapy office, like setting, even though this is a medical treatment so that there are medical providers, but the, the office is set in, in, in, in very comfortable way. People are lying down.

Um, so we have bedding set up and. There, there, there is an invitation for internal focus. So people wear eye shades, um, and then there is music that plays in the room. And so all of that is kind of facilitating this, uh, vulnerability but also ease. And, um, the eye shades kind of invite a person to stay with their process instead of kind of engaging with the outside.

And when the session happens, the, the, the person comes in, um, you know, I. Think about that, that I'm also preparing for the session. So the client is, you know, preparing maybe with, they're fasting, they're thinking about their [00:32:00] intention, they're avoiding, um, you know, distressing news or conversation with the most challenging person in their life before the session.

So they're coming with more peaceful mind. And then I am, I am doing the same, you know, kind of thinking about my diet, about my, um. Uh, uh, so that I can be fully present and available for the client I care. So you're 

Boomer Anderson: not having a Big Mac right before one of these things, 

Veronika Gold: you know? 

Boomer Anderson: It's Or at or at all, I hope.

Veronika Gold: Yeah. Or even the night before. You know when, then you kind of know you feel a little sluggish or not, you know, right there. Um. It's, it's important I think for the, for the therapist and the guy to be mindful of that. And, you know, I wanna be rested so that I can stay fully present. And, and so then they come in and the first part of the session is usually checking in from, you know, how's been since the last time we've seen each other and, and what is the intention that they would like to bring in [00:33:00] to the medicine session and.

I review with them everything we are gonna do. Uh, we talk about agreements around, um. They're gonna stay in the session for until, until they're back from the medicine and how I'm gonna help them to go to the bathroom, how are they gonna go home from the session? And that, you know, there is, there, there, there boundaries around touch.

And so we review all of that and um, and then there is a shift into the medicine space. And I think about it in a, it's a, it's a, it's a ceremony in a way. It's a, it's kind of, you know, the, there might be. That just something little comes in the session that they might have that un ketamine antidepressant effect, or they might be more in touch with their process.

But also it might be the, the, the, the most life-changing moment in this person's life. And so we, you know, I wanna hold at this, [00:34:00] um. At most kind of respect and care that, uh, we don't know what's gonna come out in this session. And so I want the client to feel safe and that it's, it's a sacred, sacred work going to these expanded states.

And so, um, we have like a way how we transition into the ceremonial space, which can be, um, uh, you know, again, it's on the co kind of conversation, co-creation with the client. So it could be sound, it could be, um, uh. Working with aerosols, uh, using s smoke like smudging. Um, I, I like to bring in cards like, uh, uh, you know, there are a lot of these, like a, like a, like some are tarro, but some are like animal cards or, but it brings, you know, kind of this playfulness so that we are also like bringing like a playfulness and curiosity, creativity into the session.

Boomer Anderson: Openness, right? Yeah. 

Veronika Gold: And then, and then they take the medicine. [00:35:00] And we, you know, there was some meditation as they're waiting for it to take affect. And then I'm with them for the duration of the, of the, of the, the, the session of the, you know, active affect medicine. This ketamine, you know, will be somewhere between 45 and 90 minutes following them, following their process, supporting them.

So kind of getting out of the way, but also having kind of this back and forth. And so sometimes we, you know, talk more, sometimes we, uh, work with the body. And, and then as they're coming back, it's kind of a way of the beginning of the integration that the first is like coming back into the body, reflecting back on the journey, starting to put more words into their experience, but it's still about kind of staying in their heart rather than, you know.

Making insights or concepts because then we'll meet for the integration session, the, the, usually the next day or the day [00:36:00] after where we, we start to make more of the connections. 

Boomer Anderson: So let, let's talk about integration then, because that, that was beautiful. And I, I think door to door in terms of from when they come in to when they leave, is that, that's like a four or five hour process, I'm guessing.

Veronika Gold: So this, with the ketamine sessions, we do do three hour sessions. But they do, you know, preparation probably day or two days before, and then they have the integration after. So some people need four hours and some people kind of feel ready in two and a half hours. So I, in, in average it's three hours and it's, it's short, you know?

So like when we, when we work with MBMA, it would be like eight hours. So there is also this, uh, yeah, something that can be nice for some people. It's a shorter time 

Boomer Anderson: and you integration, one of the things that. When I talk to somebody who's going through one of these experiences for the first time, it, it's sort of the warning is don't go right back to your phone [00:37:00] or, you know, don't go right back to whatever you're doing.

How do you look at integration in terms of both the day of, but also following that? 

Veronika Gold: I think integration starts already in the, in the preparation, so. Uh, talking about what the client might feel like after, kind of strategizing for, uh, how they will, uh, and how we will address some of the things that might come up.

Um, we are giving them these, these, these. Suggestions as, as you said, like, don't, don't go to your phone. Don't watch a distressing movie. Maybe don't watch the news right after the session. Don't call, you know, a difficult relative and, and see if you can take more time for, for yourself because. Many of us are, uh, used to just like go, go, go.

And so like taking the time. So really that, that, that's change is kind of initiated [00:38:00] through the medicine can, can have time to kind of unfold and start to stabilize and. And that the, the medicine, even though they're coming back from it, it still continues working so that they're still paying attention to their dreams, to, you know, journaling can be really helpful because sometimes like there is something and then it's, it's kind of fragile memory and goes away.

So we talk about these, these principles. And then I talk with them a lot about integration challenges and so that it does not prevent those challenges. But, um, you know, when they come, uh, we can reflect back and be like, okay, so now we are in this difficult place that we, we talked about it, that can come up.

Uh, so it's kind of normalizing, you know, one of the. Uh, common and difficult for the client as well as the therapist, but, uh, important to understand that there, there, there is this expansion and then there is a [00:39:00] contraction. And so that's kind of the process that happens. And sometimes we can refer to like Zigs and Zach as you're going, you know, up the mountain or, you know, riding the waves that, that come and so that the decline can kind of expect that, you know, maybe they're in this.

Stay connected to themself, to love to more inside. And then there is gonna be contraction. And it doesn't mean that it's something wrong, that the treatment is not working. It's, it's kind of, you know, seeing like, can we find the value in the contraction as well as the expansion. 

Boomer Anderson: Oh, that's so beautifully said.

'cause there's moments where you, you go through the experience and you're like, this is it. I'm done. Great. And then you go back to everyday life. All of a sudden you're like, oh, you know, the old me is back again. And just having that mindset of how do I carry that, that. The value into the contraction is very well said.

So [00:40:00] thank you for that. Uh, let's talk about Polaris a little bit and what, what you guys are doing there, because, uh, I'm fascinated obviously with the work that you do, uh, have asked you questions many, many times, uh, in person over the phone, et cetera. Uh. Let's talk about Polaris and, and the work you guys are doing there.

Veronika Gold: Yeah, so, so Polaris, it's a, it's a small clinic that we have started in, in San Francisco in 2017, 2018. And the, the, the inspiration was, um, my and my colleagues' work on the MDMA assisted psychotherapy clinical trials for the treatment of PTSD. Uh, also our colleagues work with Ketamine. So at that time there, there were not a lot of Ketamine clinics.

There were few therapists who were doing the work and, uh, we had the opportunity to talk with, with several of them. And, um. And, and, and [00:41:00] so I worked first at an infusion clinic, kind of bringing in psychotherapy, and then, uh, we decided to start Polaris and, um, it, it, it, it, we started providing treatment for, for, for clients with individual ketamine assisted psychotherapy.

Then we expanded to also offering groups and, um. Because at that time it wasn't very known. We started offering these, uh, experientials and trainings for psychotherapists. And so it was usually psychotherapists who were in the area who wanted to refer clients to ketamine. Uh, it was, um, uh, owners of ketamine IV clinics who've never had Ketamine experience themselves and, and wanted to experience it or.

Therapists of, of clients who were coming to us and they were seeing the changes that were happening. And so they became curious. And so that's, um, that, that kind of started, um, this, this kind of education [00:42:00] piece. And um, and then the pandemic happened and we, um, were thinking a lot about, you know, how to move forward and then decided to, to offer Ketamine virtually.

And we were offering groups for, um. First responders and nurses, therapists, physicians, and for a lot of people it became really kind of the lifeline in the, in the, in the pandemic to be able to do that. And, and, and that led to developing a training program. And so. Now we, we have a team of about eight therapists, uh, who provide ke assisted psychotherapy, uh, in-person virtual groups.

And, and then we have a training program for training, uh, psych providers, psychologists, psychotherapist, um. Uh, you know, nurses, chaplains, ministers, and we, we, we started offering [00:43:00] training also for, for, for spiritual leaders as, um, uh, we think it's a really important part of the support for, for people working with psychedelic medicine of 

Boomer Anderson: course.

And healing the healer is certainly a big role as well. Um, wanna transition Veronica to just getting, you know. Psychedelics. I, I, I generally don't like the term renaissance, but I'm gonna use it. It's had a little bit of a, a, a comeback, if you will, over the past. And you've been a part of that since really it started becoming known.

And, and the press. What's your biggest concern about this movement with psychedelics at this moment 

Veronika Gold: it is. I think the me medicalization of psychedelics of not understanding the, the expanded states and the, um, layers of consciousness that we can access and, [00:44:00] um, therapists offering these treatments without proper training and without self experience.

Uh. Because this, this while, um, you know, it's a, it's a, you know, I, I, I don't like the term either Renaissance, psychedelic Renaissance, and 

Boomer Anderson: yeah, 

Veronika Gold: it's, it's a, it's a, but there is this, this, this comeback and new way of relating to these psychedelic medicines, but they've been around for thousands of years and.

Indigenous people from all around the world have been working with expanded states of consciousness as a way of, of healing, growing transformation, communal healing. Uh. Transitions and, um, the, the, the self experience in all these, uh, cultures is really the key. And sometimes it's it's years or decades of personal experience [00:45:00] before the person becomes the, the person who carries the medicine, who, who administers the medicine.

And so then in, in the Western world, we. Oftentimes approach it as it is a tool that I'm gonna put in my toolbox and, and, um, not, not necessarily need my own experience or maybe have one experience, but the, the, the, the people don't really get to know the, the medicine, the substance, and. And there are a lot of, lot of different challenges that can come from that.

So, so that is, you know, one of my, my biggest concerns because it, you know, it's not only the harm that can be done to the client, but also the harm to the therapists because the, the, you know, the burnout that can happen if, uh, the, the providers are not, uh, familiar with, with this work is, is quite high. 

Boomer Anderson: I remember just as an aside, the story, I haven't shared this with you before, [00:46:00] but my wife, uh, one of her best friends went to a yoga.

We were living in Amsterdam at the time, went to a yoga class and it was, uh, pay what you want, ayahuasca ceremony. And she was texting us, being like, Hey, should I do this? I was like, probably not a good idea, uh, because it was somebody who was trying to basically learn on the fly. Those types of things are now popping up, which that I have a concern about.

So let's flip it over to the positive, uh, here, which is, you know, you see some headlines from even this administration in the United States, that there might be a sort of push to move these, some of these medicines more mainstream. What excites you about, um, the field? Over the next few years, 

Veronika Gold: the portability of, of healing of trauma is, is such a big one for me.

And in the past we could sing about like these big ti traumas and, you know, when we go into history, it's, it's not [00:47:00] very distant history. When, when, when trauma wasn't even acknowledged. And, and, and so learning about the, the extent that that people. Have been experiencing trauma and, and, and, you know, oftentimes just living in this world that, uh, there is a lot of trauma pain that's being done, done and transferred to their kids.

And, and, um, and so the potential of, of being able to heal that and kind of bringing back the. The care for oneself, care for the planet, care for the ecology, care for the community. So it's kind of a, you know, I also see the possibility of the shift from more of that individualized focus. To more collective focus, which, which I think is so important because the, um, you know, if, if it's not PTSD, it, it'll be anxiety or depression is oftentimes caused by isolation.

So there is this, [00:48:00] um, way of, of reconnecting with, with, with oneself and with others and was utters and, um. And, and, and so it's, it's exciting to see how many different, uh, studies there are, how many different molecules and, and that there are different approaches, you know, so I talk about what, um, you know, is my approach and what I believe, but that there is no one truth and no one way of doing it.

So there is this multiple multi. Um, uh, you know, multiple approaches and, and kind of cross-pollinization of, uh, these different schools and, um, uh, bringing the, the, the, the indigenous wisdom as well as these, these ways that we are learning. So, um, these, these possibilities are very, uh, exciting to me. 

Boomer Anderson: One of the things that I've enjoyed most about getting to know you and other people with [00:49:00] experience in this community is the openness and willingness to share.

Right. Uh, in terms of you've shared some of the things that you've learned from various healers and you know, there's this genuine willingness to share and no expectation of anything coming back. Uh, whereas, you know, other, we can just look at our world right now. There's a lot of like, focus on intellectual property and me.

Holding this very dearly. Uh, and, and it's just been almo, it is been very refreshing actually, to just have open conversations over, you know, this works for this type of person. And, you know, I, I've also had experience here and, oh, tell me more about that. It's not, it's not something you see almost anywhere else.

So, 

Veronika Gold: yeah. Yeah. And I really, you know, appreciate kind of you, uh, and, and, and thinking about it in this way and, uh. Really there is like, I feel it's a, it's a, it's like an urgency that we need to support each other and [00:50:00] bring more healing and, um, that it doesn't belong to any one person. So I think the, the, and that there is so many people who need help and support.

So I think that's where I think the collaboration and sharing is, is important because in a lot of times the opposite comes from fear and sense of scarcity and the desire for power, money control. And where we can shift to this more, uh, of a space of abundance and trust and love ultimately is, is, um. We realize that that's not necessary because there, there is, uh, yeah.

So many people who need it. 

Boomer Anderson: True, true. Uh, very true. And, and you know, one of, uh, my mentors says humans are not the only species of, uh, [00:51:00] animals on this planet, but we're the most pernicious. And I think these substances kind of allow you to realize that there's more to. World than, than just humans. Uh, I wanna shift to three rapid fire questions for, just to kind of conclude us to the dismount, if you will, Veronica.

'cause this has been a fun, fun conversation. I'm sure we're gonna have more, uh, lucky you, but. If you were to summarize just benefits of ketamine for people who are tuning in here and a short bit, what would it be? 

Veronika Gold: Mm-hmm. Antidepressant, anti-anxiety, allowing a deeper connection with oneself. Uh, bringing more trust in, in, in oneself and one's life.

Um, so I think those are, um, some of the. Um, benefits. 

Boomer Anderson: One question we ask everybody that comes on this show is if you were to, uh, give [00:52:00] the listeners here one piece of advice to live smarter, not harder, what would it be? 

Veronika Gold: Since important to, um, find a way of connecting back to nature and to listening to oneself, to one's body because we are, uh, taught to ignore.

Ourselves, ignore what, what is coming up? So, um, trusting more, slowing down, more self. 

Boomer Anderson: That last part, slowing down is something I probably need to do sometimes, but, um. Veronica, where can people find out more about you, your work, and what you're doing at Polaris? 

Veronika Gold: So our website, polaris insight.com, uh, has all the information of our offerings and, um, happy for anyone who wants to contact me through there.

Boomer Anderson: Beautiful. Veronica, this has been such a fun conversation. I know we're gonna have more, but, uh. [00:53:00] Just wanna wrap things up today and say thank you for all of the work you're doing in the world. I know. Numerous people who've worked with you and, uh, have all benefited from your work and your teaching. So thank you so much for being here today and chatting with us.

Veronika Gold: Thank you, boomer. Such a pleasure to be here. And, and, and thank you for all the work you're doing and bringing this information. 

Boomer Anderson: Thank you to everybody listening, and for everybody listening, I always remember, you know, there is a smarter, not harder approach. Thank you. Have a wonderful day.

Find more from Veronika Gold:

Website: https://www.polarisinsight.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/veronika1dream/

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