In this episode of the Smarter Not Harder Podcast, Dr. Scott Wustenberg gives us one-cent solutions to life’s $64,000 questions that include:

• How do tongue ties and early oral development influence neurodiversity outcomes?
• Why is chewing important for nutrient absorption and vagus nerve stimulation?
• What are the five foundational rules of human health — and how can they unlock neurodivergent potential?
• How does primitive reflex integration support brain and airway rehabilitation in children and adults?

Who is Dr. Scott Wustenberg?

What did Dr. Scott and Jodi discuss?

00:00 Introduction to Brain-First Health & Healing
01:19 Meet Dr. Scott Wustenberg: A Journey Through Family and Functional Medicine
02:58 Why Sleep and Breathing Come Before Everything Else
03:16 The Science of Chewing, Gummies, and Brain Activation
05:50 From Family Struggles to a Clinical Framework That Works
24:32 What Makes Gummies Work? Vagus Nerve, Texture, and Neuroscience
35:45 Tongue Ties, Airway Health, and the Hidden Impact of Primitive Reflexes
40:02 Breathing Patterns, Carbon Dioxide, and Nervous System Balance
42:54 Sleep, Light, and Environmental Triggers That Sabotage Recovery
46:03 How to Build Energy Reserves for Deep Sleep and Brain Repair
48:07 The Role of Primitive Reflexes in Development and Mental Health
52:49 Recognizing Reflexes in Kids: Red Flags for Long-Term Issues
01:02:05 Assessing the Whole Person: Brain-First Clinical Strategies That Work

Full Transcript:

[00:00:00] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Every symptom going on is either done by the brain or because the brain failed to do the better thing. So that, that's the basis of everything that I've done. All of my, my gummies are based around the idea that we're trying to support the brain to give it the best resources, to allow it to normalize human greatness.

[00:00:22] Jodi Duval: Yeah. Not 

[00:00:22] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: just, here's another B vitamin, because you need more B vitamin. It's how do we support the brain to use your epigenetics to make you the best version of yourself? So in all things, the brain is key. And number one, the second rule for being human is that everything is a resource management issue.

[00:00:41] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Yeah. 

[00:00:42] Jodi Duval: So. 

[00:00:43] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: All of the resources like water supplementation, love, stimulus, they're all incredibly important. But there's a couple that really stand out, which forms rule three, four, and five. And three and four came kind of a bit later on in my story. And rule three is everything is affected by the quality of your sleep.

[00:01:05] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: If you don't sleep, you don't heal.

[00:01:19] Jodi Duval: Welcome back to the Smarter Not Harder podcast, your Home for 1 cent Solutions to $64,000 questions. I'm your host, Jody Deval, and today we are back and joined by a truly unique thinker in integrative health, Dr. Scott Stenberg. Now, Dr. Scott is a chiropractor, a clinical nutritionist, and functional biochemist.

[00:01:40] Jodi Duval: With over two decades of experience, he dives into the most complex of subjects. He is leading innovation in brain-based therapies, primitive reflex integration and neurodevelopmental health. And we talk about so many things in here that blew my mind. So. Pretty much this is what we go through, his history that we talk about in terms of, um, well, how he grew up in chiropractic influence.

[00:02:03] Jodi Duval: Um, and then he brought some techniques into Australia, um, you know, surrounding the sacro oxid technique and then how his mother used to practice herbalism and nutrition and this sort of foundationally his upbringing. And then into, um, graduating chiropractic medicine and looking at and doing a double major in biochemistry and physiology at Auckland University.

[00:02:22] Jodi Duval: And so later pursuing postgrad studies and neuro rehabilitation, and also a master's in nutritional medicine. So really the catalyst was for his family, um, when his daughter regressed into autism in 18 months and became nonverbal. And so his, um, sole purpose was to create, um, a, a a a system and support for his daughter, his family, um, and to know how best to treat that.

[00:02:47] Jodi Duval: So here comes a lifetime of learning and diving deep. So he didn't realize then that continuous supplementation blacked long-term regulation and inspired the brain centered approach. So his five [00:03:00] foundational rules for human optimization, the brain is everything. Resource man management is central. Sleep quality, governs everything.

[00:03:07] Jodi Duval: Breathing, especially efficien. CO2 balance and movement drives brain development. So those we discuss in detail. We also look at the importance of chewing and the gummies that he has created that I now have in my clinic. And I love and I love using with clients. And so chewing activates the vagus nerve, promotes the parasympathetic rest, digest, and the gummies provide an easy, safe, and pleasurable delivery system, especially for the neurodivergent individuals.

[00:03:35] Jodi Duval: And the sweetness is actually used strategically to trigger oxytocin, dopamine, and improve supplement compliance. So he designed his range of clean allergy friendly, low toxin gummies for his own children with autism, A DHD. So really we look at also, um, talking through that oral, um, component, the tongue and oral ties.

[00:03:57] Jodi Duval: And so we go into that as well. There is a lot that we go through. So without further ado, we need to get into this podcast, but please, before we dive. I'd love to remind you to please take a moment to leave us a review share and like this episode, if you find it valuable, it really helps us to support this more and those who are curious about optimizing their health.

[00:04:20] Jodi Duval: So again, without further ado, let's welcome Dr. Scott to the show. All right. I have the wonderful Dr. Scott, we stenberg, and I think I might have said that right or not. I don't 

[00:04:33] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: know. It's pretty close. Okay. Uh, I pronounce it Stenberg, um, Stenberg, but it took me a long time to figure that one out when I was little, so, 

[00:04:41] Jodi Duval: oh, yes, I am, I'm still learning names.

[00:04:45] Jodi Duval: So welcome to the Smarter Not Harder podcast, Dr. Scott. And I really appreciate your time being with me today, and we are, we have some very juicy topics to talk about today. I am very excited. 

[00:04:58] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Thank you. Thank you. It's great to be here and I am quite excited about the, uh, range of things that you're interested in.

[00:05:06] Jodi Duval: No, absolutely. So I first came across you, um, and I wanna, I wanna find out, you know, more about you in a minute, but I first came across you with the products that I was seeking out to get good quality supplements of what I wanted to try and, um, compound into a gummy myself that I couldn't, I couldn't for the life of me create a nice tasting gummy.

[00:05:28] Jodi Duval: And you have take, you have created so many, so many, so blown away, and then I dove into all of your expertises. Exactly. We have a whole range there. We've got a pretty good, good range here and they are flying off the shelf and the success of what they are providing is the most important part, I think, as well.

[00:05:48] Jodi Duval: So 

[00:05:48] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: that's awesome. 

[00:05:49] Jodi Duval: We will get into that. But tell me your personal story. How did you. Landing chiropractic medicine, nutritional medicine, research, books, [00:06:00] courses, clinician, everything. Tell me, tell me what prompted you or what brought you to this place? 

[00:06:07] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Um, that's a, that's a really kind of broad It is. I was, I fell into healthcare partially because my uncle is also a chiropractor and he bought, uh, sacro occipital technique to Australia, uh, 50 years ago.

[00:06:23] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So I grew up. In an environment where chiropractic was there, I was adjusted from two weeks of age onwards. My mother did herbalism and, and nutrition as part of her, you know, you'd call it perhaps a side hustle. Now that was her area of interest, um, when we were growing up. So like you couldn't be sick at home because she'd make you something really obnoxious with like black koosh or, uh, eucalyptus tincture.

[00:06:54] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Oh my goodness. So if you were sick, you were really sick because she would do something that was vile and you needed to be properly sick to want to go through that now. Sounds familiar. Yeah. That, that led to a, a kind of. Process. Like I went through high school and I was going to do business studies and economics and accounting, and I'm gonna go to university and do that and follow my other uncle.

[00:07:21] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And I was sitting in a class about August of my final year and I just went, this is boring, the pants off me. I can't do it, uh, for the rest of my life. And decided at that moment to become a chiropractor. And so, uh, went through the process of trying to apply for college. Uh, I actually got into the very first class of the New Zealand School of Chiropractic, uh, and graduated, uh, in that first class and then have evolved kind of there.

[00:07:52] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: But to do my degree status with the New Zealand School, I actually did two degrees at the same time. One at Auckland University and one at the College of Chiropractic, because we actually had to have a. A recognized degree from a recognized institution to prove that we were actually of an educational status to meet their, um, like because it was a first class, first graduating class, they had a greater strictness to prove that we were actually of equality.

[00:08:28] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So I did two degrees at the same time. My first degree is actually biochemistry and physiology, so I did a double major there and a chiropractic degree, and I didn't sleep an awful lot, which I look back and I regret. 

[00:08:41] Jodi Duval: Yes, yes. Now, now I'm trying to fix all of this and helping others to do the same. 

[00:08:46] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Yeah. I, I really didn't have a great thought process.

[00:08:50] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: It was like, if I don't have to sleep, I could be so much more productive. And now I look at that and go, that is wrong, thinking if you sleep more and sleep better, you are more [00:09:00] likely to be productive. But, you know, it was just a sign of the times. 

[00:09:05] Jodi Duval: Wow, that is incredible. So, and bio biochemistry is a, is a, um, in depth place to start as well.

[00:09:13] Jodi Duval: So hence why you have so much knowledge in what you are, what we're gonna talk about today. Absolutely. Alright, so I guess, you know, when we're, when we're clinicians, when we're in, in this field, there's, there's so much that we see and we want to help and there is suffering. And so where, you know, I guess where do you wanna start?

[00:09:32] Jodi Duval: You know, how, how do you feel that, what do you see in your practice now? How has it, how has it evolved? Where are you focusing? You know, a lot of your time on now, 'cause I know obviously, you know, your initial supplements probably would have evolved for a purpose and then going into and, and evolving through change as well.

[00:09:51] Jodi Duval: And then obviously what you do with your chiropractic medicine as well. 

[00:09:55] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So I suppose I should start with the basic context of, of how I got to where I am at this moment. And, uh, all three of my kids, uh, have some degree of special needs. So my eldest daughter was neurotypical till about 18 months of age and then stepped off the planet into the world of autism from there on, and by four was nonverbal, non toilet trained, staring into space, literally finger painting poop on walls at different moments in time, which was.

[00:10:23] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Horrific. 

[00:10:24] Jodi Duval: Wow. 

[00:10:25] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And chiropractic at that point. And the work that I did made not a jot of difference to it. We went to, uh, the, the standard GP we went to, uh, pediatricians, they shunted us sideways to the ot. Uh, this is, you know, 18, 20 years ago. So this really didn't give us any support, any help. And so I believe that, that the children pick us to give them the best start and support them to grow them into being the best version of themselves.

[00:10:58] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Mm-hmm. So I couldn't accept that that was the limit of Meghan's future capacity. Yeah, so it forced me to retrain. And so I went down the rabbit hole of nutrition medicine, integrative medicine. I did my masters in, uh, nutrition medicine. I have a fellowship with the Australasian College of Nutritional Environmental Medicine.

[00:11:24] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Uh, I've trained with AER and acna and, uh, the Mind Foundation, and I've looked at the rabbit hole on the plethora that is, um, integrative medicine for the, the autistic A DHD, uh, space. 

[00:11:43] Jodi Duval: And 

[00:11:44] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: all of the work, all the things that we did, made a difference. 

[00:11:48] Jodi Duval: Mm. 

[00:11:49] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: But the problem with that work is. It has this never ending upregulation of, okay, just add this, that tops out, just add [00:12:00] this.

[00:12:00] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And it, it was all about just adding more resources and there was never a normalization. 

[00:12:06] Jodi Duval: Hmm. 

[00:12:07] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And so again, my, my preconditioning from the chiropractic point of view as well as biochemistry, physiology is that we're meant to be helping patients normalize, not just add and add and add and add and add. And because it gets.

[00:12:22] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Difficult. You cannot give just this infinitum amount of supplements or drugs or otherwise to people and expect a good outcome. 

[00:12:31] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[00:12:32] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Now we did get a good outcome, but it was always this. Okay, that's topped out. We haven't got there yet. We haven't got there yet. Mm-hmm. So it brought me back full circle to go back to studying and I did my postgraduate research and and studies in neuro rehabilitation, and it gave me the basis that actually formed part of my book, which is that the beginning of everything is the brain.

[00:12:58] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So everything that we are, every symptom that's going on in you at this moment in time, apart from from immediate direct trauma, I punch you in the face. You don't expect that. But from the moment of impact, how your brain deals with the snap, the muscle grab, the, the inflammation, the healing, everything is driven by your brain for your best survival.

[00:13:20] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Mm-hmm. So most practitioners don't have the brain as their very first thought in everything. Every symptom going on is either done by the brain or because the brain failed to do the better thing. Mm. So that, that's the basis of everything that I've done. All of my, my gummies are based around the idea that we're trying to support the brain to give it the best resources, to allow it to normalize human greatness.

[00:13:50] Jodi Duval: Yeah. Not 

[00:13:51] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: just, here's another B vitamin, because you need more B vitamin. It's how do we support the brain to use your epigenetics to make you the best version of yourself? So in all things, the brain is key. And number one, the second rule for being human is that everything is a resource management issue.

[00:14:09] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Yeah. 

[00:14:10] Jodi Duval: So. 

[00:14:11] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: All of the resources, like water supplementation, love, stimulus, they're all incredibly important. But there's a couple that really stand out, which forms rule three, four, and five. And three and four came kind of a bit later on in my story. And rule three is everything is affected by the quality of your sleep.

[00:14:33] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: If you don't sleep, you don't heal, right? Mm-hmm. You can't grow, you can't thrive. You will decompensate. And of course, Megan was a terrible sleeper. As it turns out, all of my kids were terrible sleepers. 

[00:14:46] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[00:14:46] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And we missed some of the major important things very early on, that if I'd found them in that first year, we'd have probably have had a really different outcome for all three of my kids.

[00:14:59] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[00:14:59] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: [00:15:00] But you know, they taught me lots and lots, and other people have benefited from that. Mm-hmm. I try to hold that concept in mind when I get little sad moments about it. 

[00:15:09] Jodi Duval: Of course, of course. It's all learning. 

[00:15:11] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So sleep is incredibly important. And if it's fragmented, the brain doesn't do things quite so well.

[00:15:18] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: It loses energy, it doesn't detox as effectively, it doesn't drive your hormones in a growth trajectory. It, it puts you into survival state. 

[00:15:28] Jodi Duval: Hmm. 

[00:15:29] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So rule four, everything is affected by the quality of your breathing and gas exchange. Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:35] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. If you 

[00:15:36] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: don't breathe. You don't thrive. Mm-hmm. In fact, obviously if you don't breathe for like four minutes, you are kind of dead.

[00:15:44] Jodi Duval: This episode is proudly brought to you by the Home Hope Gut Immune System cohort that is coming from the module. First time we are doing this, and it is gonna be on July the seventh of this year. And we normally have the clinical metabolomics as a cohort, but it's the first time that we're stepping outta our comfort zone and we are going into the gut immune system.

[00:16:07] Jodi Duval: And so this is because we have been asked so many by so many people to put this on and it's gonna be an incredible opportunity. So this is a groundbreaking clinical training as part of the health Optimization Medicine and Practice certification. And so it is designed for health professionals ready to transform their understanding of the gut immune interface.

[00:16:27] Jodi Duval: And so we do recommend doing and having the clinical metabolomics to actually step into this. So ask us questions if you need that, send a, send a message across to home hope.org. Um, but in here we'll learn all aspects of the gut immune system. So won't waste your time, but look into it. Have a look on the website.

[00:16:46] Jodi Duval: So visit home hope.org. Um, slash product slash gut immune, uh, cohort. And that's where you will find that. And myself and the team, the whole faculty will be there with you every step of the way and guiding you through the modules and students and feedback and curiosity and conversations. Amazing. So now let's get back to the show enough with my rambling and, um, we will get back with Dr.

[00:17:14] Jodi Duval: Scott. 

[00:17:16] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Right. So, so the, the platform is based on this really simplistic, it's do the best thing or the alternatives. Is death. And if you don't look at it from that very fatalistic kind of viewpoint, we kind of make stuff up to go, oh, it's not that bad. Don't worry about that. And from the brain's point of view, it, we, we are, uh, I, I call us kind of angry chimpanzees with better sticks.

[00:17:42] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: We are not these sophisticated, wonderful creatures. The beautiful thing that you are with earrings, et cetera, we are survival organisms. Yeah. But because of our better decision making maybe, um, then, then some of the other mammals out there, [00:18:00] when we go into survival, we can either make really great decisions or really, really terrible decisions.

[00:18:06] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So the goal is to make sure the brain has its resources, which includes. Oxygen, carbon dioxide, gas exchange, sleep, et cetera. So the problem is, is that if you have things like tongue tie, oral ties, small jaws, small noses, et cetera, you will commonly fragment your sleep because your airway is now under threat and your brain cannot have your airway under threat at all.

[00:18:36] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And there's a whole bunch of reasons behind this, but I miss my kids' tongue ties. 

[00:18:41] Jodi Duval: Mm. And 

[00:18:42] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: so this has become a really big part of how I approach all of my patients. Everything is from a neurological point of view, but as it turns out, all of the cells that form the cartilage that forms the points of your cheeks, your nose, your jaw, the oral fascia, these are all neural crest cells, which migrate at about week five.

[00:19:06] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: From the neural cord. So they're all neuronal tissue, meaning that all of your facial development is a neurodevelopmental consideration. And therefore, if there is a problem, that means you have a neurodevelopmental disorder because at the same time as the faces developing, the wiring coming from what becomes a spinal cord is invigilating into that tissue and helping teach the brain how to move your facial structures, your breathing, your airway, your suck, swallow, and breathe patterns and drives the, uh, primitive reflexes that I deeply look at and look at with every one of my patients because.

[00:19:49] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: If there's a problem with how your face and your tongue develops from week five onwards, it will cause a compensation in every part of your neuronal wiring to make your frontal lobes work and you will decompensate. So we find lots and lots of adults will actually come in with their primitive reflexes intact when we shouldn't expect them to.

[00:20:11] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So rule five, therefore is everything is impacted by the amount of movement going on for you. Now, chiropractors will commonly think about movements towards joints or muscles perhaps. So will lots of other body worker type patterns, but it's not just adjustment of a joint or strengthening a muscle. It's the movement of repetition because we wire up.

[00:20:37] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Repetition. If you don't do enough movement, such as you are not moving your tongue to the roof of your mouth effectively, all through the pregnancy and beyond, you are not gonna wire your frontal lobes, and you are more inclined towards anxiety disorders. Poorer attachment issues, such as the whole point of suckling and perfect tongue movement in the breastfeeding in those first [00:21:00] moments is to create diad bonding with mom.

[00:21:03] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:04] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Right. So if there's a problem there, we don't get the oxytocin released to go. That's the best thing in the world. Wow. Look, I, I just, you know, innately love you. Yeah. And like, I, I, I'm anthropomorphizing that kids at, at one day of age are going, I love you. But, but there's that, that connection. And it starts with tongue, mouth movement and breastfeeding.

[00:21:27] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And from that moment, the first suction and suckling eyes go up to mum's face, which activates the tonic labyrinthine reflex and the neck muscles. Mm-hmm. Creating an extensor tone. And that's the very first movement outside the body that drive your primitive reflexes to start working. So if there's issues with your midline structure, tone, either too tight, too kind of flopsy, you don't start driving your primitive reflexes to work properly, hence as a 15-year-old, if that still, if that problem still exists.

[00:22:05] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: You're gonna have a whole lot more problems, including indications towards things like a DHD or anxiety disorder. 

[00:22:12] Jodi Duval: Hmm. Wow. That was a two force. I love that. That is a lot to unpack, so good. Okay. So yes, I, I think I'll just touch from the, from the end point there is the, the breathing from my perspective with clients, um, I've been through this with my children.

[00:22:28] Jodi Duval: I've done expansion. I've, I've, I've got a, a very good dentist who is a friend, um, uh, also see chiropractors, um, yeah, a lot with, with all of them. But from the expansion point of view and the breathing point of view, and speaking to, you know, Patrick McEwen and all of these experts like yourself in the field, it's so apparent how essential all of this is to the adult conditions and issues that I see in clinic.

[00:22:58] Jodi Duval: Um, absolutely. So, yeah, I, I, I absolutely am on board with everything that you've said there. So, you know, I guess let's talk through. So that the, the, obviously you've got the, the rules there, which are incredible. So from a perspective of, of impact, and I love what you said about having too many things and constantly layering on for fixes.

[00:23:19] Jodi Duval: Yes. And because it gets exhausting. And so I see a lot of complex cases, you see a lot of complex cases when you say to someone that, you know, you've gotta do this and you gotta do that, and you gotta do this and you gotta take that, it's just, it's too much. They don't even have the capacity to do that at that point.

[00:23:33] Jodi Duval: And so yes, when is there a foundational measure or when is there a point of rest or where, is there a point where you can actually come to, to go, okay, now is, now is the rest point or now is the point where we don't have to do too much and what is it that we've got going on right now? Okay, next, next goal.

[00:23:51] Jodi Duval: And so I guess that's that confusion between so many different modalities. You know, when we've got different referral networks and we've got the medical system and we've got different specialists and all these things, [00:24:00] so. From to, to clear that right at the beginning. So I think a lot of people listening to this will have very, um, uh, you know, empathetic stories of what they experience on a daily basis, including practitioners who deal with this.

[00:24:12] Jodi Duval: So how do you, how do you start with patients when you actually have that, you know, coming in and you talk to them, and obviously it is always gonna be personalized, but how do you make things easier for them or more, um, for, from perspective of how you look at these treatments and the importance of all these rules that you talk about?

[00:24:32] Jodi Duval: You know, and one of my questions is like, why gummies? You know that? And because not only do children. Love these in the right doses, but adults are taking these off the shelf, like they've never consumed these before. Yeah. Um, and getting the results from them. So that was a loaded question in that, you know, we can do things that are easier for people and more pleasurable for people to make changes.

[00:24:56] Jodi Duval: And I say, let's have a discussion around that, I think. 

[00:24:58] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Okay. So there's a bunch there. Yeah. To ask the gummy question. It's very simple. Everything is brain-based. 

[00:25:05] Jodi Duval: Mm. 

[00:25:05] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Get best absorption. You have to chew your food to activate the vagus nerve. So if you go back to first principles again, which is the, uh, joyous name of my book.

[00:25:15] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So I'll throw the, uh, yes. Self plugin. Yes. First principles. If you remember a moment ago, I said, starts with suckling. Now, what occurs with that first suckle is we activate the nerves in the mouth and we activate the suck, swallow, breathe reflex. Mm-hmm. But a moment after that peristaltic action starts the, the muscle movement to go and take the bolus all the way down to hit the stomach.

[00:25:41] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: When it hits the stomach, the vagus nerve activates and sends a signal to the brain that releases oxytocin. And the oxytocin starts the wiring, which then. Binds in the release through the immune receptors in different parts of the deep center of the brain. It releases serotonin and dopamine. So that action from suckling to activate the vagus nerve, has to have a mouth action, which is starts with suckling and then moves into chewing.

[00:26:15] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: That has to have a reward sensation of activation of a, a, a food-like substance in the gut, for the brain to go, I'm safe, right? So the basic context of that is if we don't chew our food, our supplementation, our nourishment, the brain via the vagus nerve is not very interested and it will not activate for best absorption.

[00:26:44] Jodi Duval: Hmm. 

[00:26:44] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So chewing is critical for the brain to actually bring absorption of nourishment into the body. Now, the problem that everyone forgets is that a tablet can be conflated by the the brain to be like medication, [00:27:00] and medication indicates to the brain even like a three or 4-year-old. Medication means I'm sick.

[00:27:06] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: I get medication when I'm not good, right? That is a very different state of being than I'm in. Rest, digest and calm, happy. So sick is fight flight, and you don't digest and absorb well when you're in fight flight, running from a bear. Right. So we are trying to put all of our candidates, all of our patients, all of our people into as much rest digest because rest digest is open, right?

[00:27:36] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: I'm in a cuddle zone. Fight flight is, I'm not in a cuddle zone, right? So from the guts perspective, and again, go back to first principle, I bind to mum. I suckle, I look up, that is the greatest, most magnificent thing in my universe. It's a infinite love loop that activates the vagus nerve back to the brain.

[00:27:57] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And we have to make our our nourishment interesting, salient, and ideally I went with the idea of trying to make it delicious. So when the child is born, it has sweet salt, right? Mm-hmm. We only have those two flavors. Mm-hmm. Everything else is a learned response from there. 

[00:28:15] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. So 

[00:28:15] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: if I would go back to first principles again.

[00:28:18] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: I need to use either sweet or salt to activate those parts of the brain that become interested and motivated to want to take nourishment and put us into a rest digest rather than a survival state. So that's the basic context of why gummies. Second behind that though, is I went to the integrative doctors.

[00:28:41] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: I went to the, the autistic specialist. I said, you have to give Megan to be complex and you have to give her zinc and you have, she didn't like any of it. I had to, in the end, inject her with B12 on a daily basis for years because I couldn't get her to take her supplements. She's not super keen on that.

[00:29:03] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So the supplements, the gummies rather that that I made are what I wish I had for my daughter when she was little and unable to be in a safe 'cause. She was in chronic fight flight. Yeah. 

[00:29:16] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[00:29:17] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: She just wouldn't take. Now what was really interesting, and it's part of my observations, I could give her the most beautiful meal with like broccoli or, or sauteed cabbage, a lamb cutlet, et cetera.

[00:29:31] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: It's got lots of lovely green, it smells nice, and she wouldn't touch it. She literally would do this. And there's nothing that says disdain, like a five-year-old turning its head and blowing you a raspberry, I tell you. Right? But if I bought out spearmint kind of leaf gummy lollies that are the same bright green as like she'd eat the bright green, not that we actually did this, but she would hunt for the sugar, [00:30:00] right?

[00:30:01] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So everyone out there in the naturopathic and integrative doctor world, sugar's bad, right? 

[00:30:07] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[00:30:07] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Yeah. It's just a tool. If we give a, you know, half a kilo of sugar, that's, that's a very different animal to two grams of sugar to activate a part of the brain that says this is safe and nourishing to you, and then getting the vagus nerve and the digestive tract to become involved and actually absorb the nourishment effectively at that moment in time.

[00:30:31] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: It's entirely based on neuronal principles to trigger absorption. And again, I can now get all of my kids to take their supplements because even at 21, 22 years of age, they still were resistant to doing what was best for them. 

[00:30:49] Jodi Duval: Yes, agree. I've got a 13-year-old and it's a little tricky and I never thought it would be No.

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[00:31:55] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: No. You'd imagine that they would understand and just want to do what was best for them.

[00:31:59] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Yeah. But they are hardwired to avoid things that might smell like poison. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's nothing about an integrative B vitamin capsule that smells delicious. 

[00:32:10] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:11] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: It smells toxic. Totally agree. Unfortunately. Totally agree. So the, when, when people are in fight flight, their sensory systems wire harder so that the smell of something that could be dangerous becomes more threatening.

[00:32:25] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So they avoid it more. And we wire in a part of the brain called the insula. Mm-hmm. Now the insula gives us the flavor of suffering. It gives us disgust, it makes an activation to a portion of the brain called the nucleus tract solitar, which if you wire that into hard, will give you vomiting. So they become really avoidant because it makes 'em nauseous.

[00:32:49] Jodi Duval: Yeah. So 

[00:32:50] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: we have to get the tongue involved in a, an almost pleasurable way and engage it in a fashion that is completely non-threatening. And that is the basis [00:33:00] for how I built my products. 

[00:33:02] Jodi Duval: Hmm. Wow. I love that. I know this now, and it, it does not make sense. You know, it's something that I naturally have been trying to do for my clients, but not knowing the theory or the context behind it.

[00:33:17] Jodi Duval: And wow. I love, I love this. Um, so yeah. You know, a spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down. My Mary pop. It 

[00:33:24] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: really does. And it's such a classic line. Yeah. 

[00:33:27] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[00:33:28] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: I'm trying to reduce it. So it's not really a big spoonful of sugar. It's not, and again, we've combined, uh, like some xylitol in some of them 'cause I'm trying 'cause.

[00:33:38] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Some of the products we're gonna stack together. So I've tried to kind of mix and match a little bit with reduction of the amount of total sugar. Now we use Malto in almost all of them. Yeah. Which is a cell signaling, uh, sugar. It doesn't have a rapid spike in blood sugar. Uh, but it is sweet, so it makes the brain very interested.

[00:34:01] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: We've used natural fruit as our flavoring and coloring. We don't use preservatives, we don't use, uh, any artificial things. They are gluten-free, dairy-free, because that had to be everything to not upset my children's systems. Yeah. So for all the people out there who are looking for a product, I designed them for my kids.

[00:34:24] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: One's got mast cell activation syndrome and autoimmunity. One's got asperges with a DHD. The other is a SD. We built them to not have the phenol, salicylate hyper activities. We have no oxalates in them. We've tried to make them as clean as possible for everyone. The other real key thing that I tried to avoid, um, there is no omega six oils in it.

[00:34:48] Jodi Duval: Hmm. Which I, I noticed that. Yeah. I really appreciate that. Say it against them. 

[00:34:52] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Um, but it says vegetable oil, which is the canal wax and the coconut oil in it. And so they're there as part of the, uh, the process to make it flexible and, and give it the, the gummy consistency. But there is no omega six like canola oils or otherwise in them.

[00:35:12] Jodi Duval: Yeah, I really appreciate that. And it's, it's, it's the, the power of trying to create, um, a solution to a problem that's so close to your heart that now gives great benefit to many. So it's, it's just a, an an incredible thing. And this is, I guess the back to the point of, you know, not feeling sad or, or guilty for the, the circumstances that we get ourselves into or absolutely is given to us.

[00:35:38] Jodi Duval: Um, we, we, you know, make lemon lemonade outta lemons and this is exactly the case and I love that. Yeah. 

[00:35:45] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: It was, uh, one of the things with the girls is of course, as you were saying about the expansion earlier on, the, the interesting thing, 'cause we did expansion with my girls and we got their, their teeth meshing perfectly and I did all the right [00:36:00] things, but I raised a critical point because the tongue ties and the fascial tie was still missed at that point.

[00:36:07] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And so, right. Especially with my youngest, we got backsliding of the bite. Because the fascia is still applying the tension to the bone structure, which is not rigid in a 14-year-old. 

[00:36:21] Jodi Duval: Mm. And so 

[00:36:22] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: it's really important because again, I don't believe if you do the right work and you get the stress of the bone structure and it's meshing and growing effectively, you shouldn't need to have permanent wires to retain your bite structure.

[00:36:40] Jodi Duval: No, I agree. But that's 

[00:36:41] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: how lots of, uh, the orthos tend to do things because it creates a force to stop the bones up until such point as they harden long enough. Now, one of the problems that I find quite commonly and have seen from the literature is there is a downplaying of the significance. Of the oral ties, tongue tie, buckle ties, especially.

[00:37:08] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Mm-hmm. I have cases, like I have a case, uh, that we saw last year that we did the primitive reflex work on and rehabilitated had the tongue tie, uh, released, including buckle ties, and she went from having a hundred seizures a day to having two seizures in six months post-surgery. 

[00:37:27] Jodi Duval: Wow. 

[00:37:28] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Wow. Ties are neurologically active.

[00:37:32] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: They affect all the movement of your face, which affects all the wiring up of the brain. Mm-hmm. And if you leave the person in a fight flight scenario, airway fragmented because the tongue is pulling down and back, the cheeks are pulling in the wrong direction. The primitive reflexes cannot move past that point.

[00:37:54] Jodi Duval: Hmm. Yeah. 

[00:37:54] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So when they go to sleep at night, the tension is going to pull down and back. So where will the tongue end up? 

[00:38:01] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[00:38:01] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: In the airway. 

[00:38:02] Jodi Duval: In the airway, right? Yeah. 

[00:38:04] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So the brain cannot cohabitate space with a closed off airway for any great length of time. And in fact, as it turns out, hypopnea is, and snoring and sudden occlusions are actually more dangerous for the brain than apnea is.

[00:38:21] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So the brain can tolerate not breathing for a longer period of time than it can actually tolerate short on, off, or sort of tightened airway that actually causes, uh, reperfusion injury, which creates much, much more oxidative stress in the brain and is more associated with seizure activity. 

[00:38:43] Jodi Duval: Hmm. 

[00:38:44] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: All of that facial tone discrepancy is associated with an inability to activate mirror neurons, to be able to understand people's facial expression and mimic them to learn what emotions are, which is why tongue ties are [00:39:00] very, very common.

[00:39:00] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: In fact, I've never seen someone on the spectrum who doesn't have tongue and oral ties. Mm-hmm. They are all completely associated with things like M-T-H-F-R, which is highly associated with, uh, autistic spectrum disorders. 

[00:39:16] Jodi Duval: Yes, absolutely. And again, personally myself, both my children had tongue ties and we've bought, we've got, we got them corrected and.

[00:39:27] Jodi Duval: It was early days, you know, I was re reluctant. My son was my first baby, and the midwife picked up on the tongue tie and they said, you, you need to get this sorted. Couple of weeks old. I'm like, oh no, you're not cutting anything in my baby. Absolutely not. Yeah. And so researched it, saw some of this information or although it wasn't all around then, but then realized, oh, this is important.

[00:39:51] Jodi Duval: Okay, so I'm so glad I did, but it was traumatic for me, not him. 

[00:39:56] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Absolutely. I can absolutely understand that. 

[00:39:58] Jodi Duval: Yeah. Yeah. So, all right, now that's incredible. Let's. We've got, I've still got so much to talk to you about, and I wanna get to the domestication theory, but I wanted to talk to you, just go through the breathing is such a big issue and sleep is such a big issue in people.

[00:40:12] Jodi Duval: And so we've talked about breathing and airways and, you know, even the tongue positioning and the, the neuronal connections and, and the safety and all of this sort of, um, really important components of, of being healthy as a human and, um, happy. So yes, and we are, we are seeing a, a huge rise in some of this neurodivergence.

[00:40:32] Jodi Duval: And so the domestication is what I really want to get into. But let's talk about sleep quickly. Like what is your key tools, tricks, tips about sleep? Um, obviously breathing and oxygen is a big one. Um, but what are the other things that you've noticed created and seen? 

[00:40:48] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So I'm gonna go out on the opposite limb and say, actually it's carbon dioxide.

[00:40:54] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: That's the important thing there. 

[00:40:57] Jodi Duval: This is, um, this is, uh, Patrick's. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, 

[00:40:59] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: yeah, yeah. Um, and so I, I'm pleased to say, uh, I met a chat by the name of, uh, Roger Price maybe 15, 17 years ago. And Roger is a breathing physiologist amongst many, many other things. He's been in the health industry in and around, uh, this area, breathing, sleep, airway posture for the last 60 years, roughly.

[00:41:25] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:25] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And his work taught me about, um, carbon dioxide actually being the most important thing. And then later on. More interesting and famous people started bringing this up. Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:38] Jodi Duval: But the problem 

[00:41:39] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: is, is that the average person out there thinks about breathing in relationship to oxygen. And it's really about the, the perhaps over-breathing and excess of oxygen that's getting most of us into trouble.

[00:41:52] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And so what we really need to be doing from a breathing perspective, as I see it, is trying to actually increase [00:42:00] things like the bolt score, increasing that, uh, carbon dioxide level so that you can actually release oxygen into the neuronal tissue and actually start stabilizing the membrane so that the firing level of your neurons actually calms down because excess oxygen and low carbon dioxide equals acidification, oxidative stress and damages your nerves.

[00:42:26] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Now, long term in the brain, that equates to dementias. Mm. I believe that a SD to a large degree is a, a mirror of dementia. It's just occurring at a younger age before you had your moral majority. It's the same physiological, biochemical mechanisms. 

[00:42:47] Jodi Duval: Hmm. 

[00:42:48] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So we've got lots and lots of oxidative stress. We've got lots and lots of, uh, compensatory mechanisms.

[00:42:54] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: But because the brain hasn't kind of got to a high point, it's compensating from a very low base. But the brain is basically putting you on trickle charge to go look the land of milk and honey's just over there. We've just gotta get through the door. Let's shut that down. Shut that down. And we decompensate.

[00:43:14] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So the first thing that I'm trying to get done is a reduction in the acidification and the oxidative stress, and we focus on trying to build up the carbon dioxide level. So I will use some really simple things like breathing into a brown paper bag. 

[00:43:30] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[00:43:31] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Holding the nose and walking and head shakes, focusing on flushing the sinuses.

[00:43:37] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: I use saline flushes and neti pots again, trying to get them into an arguably meditative state in the, the time before going to bed. Reducing all of your, your excess blue screens if you possibly can. Mm. Now I'm surprisingly, I'm not a major fan of blue blocks and blocking glasses. Mm-hmm. Because what's not well understood is that color affects your brain.

[00:44:04] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: It's not just a, a color frequency of too much excitation from the blue. Light, color, and light is, is a waveform that affects your skin. It, we are piezoelectric. Generators and we release light and we need the electromagnetics of light spectrums going into us to activate everything about us. So my preference isn't just stick a pair of blue block glasses on.

[00:44:34] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Mm-hmm. It's change your environment. There are, like, I'm waiting for my daylight computer, which has got no blue, uh, coming from the screen whatsoever. I'm trying to buy the so of bulbs that will automatically switch mm-hmm. To having, um, the, the violet. Um, light spectrum in it, so you still get a clean white light.

[00:44:56] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:56] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: But it, it doesn't upset your circadian [00:45:00] rhythm, so it's trying to change your environment rather than trying to, like, blue blocks, in my opinion, are about the same as just using a supplement as a bandaid to fix things. 

[00:45:11] Jodi Duval: Melatonin. 

[00:45:12] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Yeah. Now I use melatonin and I love melatonin. Mm-hmm. And, uh, like I, I have lots of arguments with different people.

[00:45:19] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Melatonin is a fantastic antioxidant. It is a brain rhythm reducer, but like you can use it at high doses to stop stage four cancer. There are doctors out there doing it. Yeah. So I think a lot of the people who were very anti, it really haven't looked hard enough into the melatonin physiology now. Is it the solution for putting you to sleep?

[00:45:41] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: No, of course it's not. All it does is slow your brain rhythms down and you know, there's a whole bunch of other things that you could be doing to slow your brain rhythms down. I use things like magnesium three innate, you could use altheine. I use adenosine to try and actually, because that's the actual technical, uh, sleep pressure, uh, nutrient for the brain.

[00:46:03] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. Um, 

[00:46:03] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: we focus actually from the flip side on building lots and lots of energy in people using things like creatine or the MIT vital product to build mitochondrial function. Because if you don't have enough energy, you can't sleep because your brain actually spends generally more energy while you're asleep, repairing you, resetting you, cleaning you, than you actually do when you're awake.

[00:46:26] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Which is why lots of people who are chronically tired can't sleep because they don't have the energy to go through the wavefronts. When they are asleep. So there's a whole bunch of stuff that I do. Um, again, we try and keep the, the room temperature nice and low. Um, you know, during the day I recommend things like cold plunge and infrared saunas.

[00:46:49] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: For people, it's trying to set circadian rhythm, but if you haven't put the person into ES state. Actually made them feel secure. Sleep is quite difficult. So your environment, the loved ones around you become really, really important. And I'm very flexible with my patients who say, well, I can't sleep without that, that nightlight or, or whatever.

[00:47:17] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Great if that's going to mentally take you down from threat 'cause we're not gonna win if I put them into a threat state. So the goal is to find what makes them feel secure in the first instance. Stabilize them there, and then work backwards from that, that point over a period of time. You know, you just have to accept that sometimes you can't make the perfect cake to start with.

[00:47:39] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Let's just bake whatever we can and then work to make it the best version as we go on. Mm. 

[00:47:47] Jodi Duval: Some very, very important perception shifts that I'm hearing you say. And it's incredible. And I think this safety piece is huge, but I also think this energy piece for sleep is really huge and, and not a lot is [00:48:00] it spoken about in that way.

[00:48:01] Jodi Duval: So I really appreciate you talking about that in that way as well. That's incredible. Um, all right, so I guess you've mentioned 1 1, 1 other thing I wanna sort of make sure we talk about, 'cause we've mentioned it, but not dived in yet, is just these 12 primitive reflexes. 

[00:48:20] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Oh yeah. 

[00:48:20] Jodi Duval: Because we kind of like tease in the ground here if we've said primitive reflexes and then we sort of don't go through it at least a little bit.

[00:48:29] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So there's, there's probably more than 12 and I, I focus in my, my 12 week program on four very specifically. 

[00:48:37] Jodi Duval: Okay. So. 

[00:48:39] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: The first major one that, that we actually look at is exactly as you're doing right at this moment. Mm-hmm. The sun swallow, breathe reflex. 

[00:48:48] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the sun 

[00:48:49] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: swallow breathe is, uh, the most important or second most important depending on where you sit and where the person is on the paradigm at any moment in time.

[00:49:01] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: The first one that actually pops up is actually the fear paralysis reflex. 

[00:49:06] Jodi Duval: Mm. 

[00:49:06] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: But the thing is, is the fear paralysis reflex is mum's reflex, not the baby's reflex. So the fear paralysis reflex pops up to protect the mum from threat in her environment. And its effect is to turn down the blood supply to the baby and reduce movement of the baby so mom can run away.

[00:49:28] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So it, it moves and partitions resources back to mom's system. Because we are designed, remember as angry chimpanzees in a threatening environment. Mm-hmm. So the chronic issues with the mortgage or arguments with your spouse or difficulty in the workplace, or I'm malnourished, whatever it might be, that threat response that activates mom's consciousness to go, I don't feel safe, will cause the fear paralysis reflex to activate, which turns down nourishment to the child.

[00:50:04] Jodi Duval: Hmm. 

[00:50:05] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Now there is all of these massive levels of consequence that go on from there. Mm-hmm. There's increased risk of heart disease in the fourth and fifth decade. Greater risks of, uh, you know, metabolic syndrome and diabetes in the fourth decade. Um, like we can go to town on that one, but it's the first one that shows up now.

[00:50:23] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Somewhere around perhaps the 12th week, it's meant to start evolving into the Morrow reflex, which is the first major reflex that I focus on retraining. But in between that, the suck, swallow, breathe actually starts because the tongue starts developing at five weeks and it's fully built by week 20.

[00:50:45] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Mm-hmm. So in that time period, the nervous system has grabbed a hold of the tongue and you are starting to make it work because it's a survival die reflex. If you come out and you don't have a functional suck, swallow, [00:51:00] breathe that you can try to get some nourishment fundamentally from the nervous system point of view of that child, I am dead.

[00:51:07] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Hmm. So you'll make whatever you have work. Now, whether that's a con. You know, the baby does not care. It just has to make something work to get some nourishment in because the baby doesn't know that our society has developed all the wonderful technology, great hospital systems, the midwives, bottles, et cetera, that will help that child survive.

[00:51:31] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: That nervous system, as I said, is a hundred thousand year old system in a modern society, and it is. Unconsciously believing that I could die if this doesn't work. Mm-hmm. So it will change all of the movements. That means it changes the wiring of the nervous system. Now that means if there is tension on the buckles, on the tongue shortening of the jaw, which we can see by month four, you can see retrusion of the jaw caused by tongue tie by month four on the ultrasound.

[00:52:04] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Mm-hmm. Now that means that that child will be in a survival state, unconsciously trying to get something to work that will change the set point for adrenaline and cortisol in that child's nervous system. 

[00:52:18] Jodi Duval: Wow. 

[00:52:18] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Okay. So by week 20, which is halfway, they have to have something working. They spend the rest of the first part of their life practicing.

[00:52:30] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So by the time they come out, they have something. To to occur. Otherwise, if they disc coordinate the S swallow, breathe, they can aspirate and they can die. Now, I'm sorry that I'm so fixated on death. I don't mean to be, but I'm trying to get the point across. It's survival. That's exactly it, right? So the fear paralysis reflex in that time zone then converts into the morrow, but a portion of it still exists and it controls the neuro musculature of the airway when you are in REM sleep and it's associated if it's dysfunctional, and we have an altered set point for cortisol with altering the myelination of the vagus nerve and a greater propensity and risk towards sids.

[00:53:22] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So for those that don't understand that sudden infant death syndrome Mm. And the children that stop breathing, and the theory behind it is when they are in stress from their environment, whether they've come out, they're in a difficult space, there's mold in the environment, the parents aren't getting on, they're not getting fed well, like, who knows, right?

[00:53:41] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Mm-hmm. That poorly myelinated, vagus nerve with over paralysis equates to the potential for I cannot regulate my breathing in REM phase of sleep and I cease. That's what the literature is, is [00:54:00] suggesting at, at this moment in time. 

[00:54:01] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[00:54:02] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And, and this is, this 

[00:54:03] Jodi Duval: is why, you know, sleeping with children have also been really high on the literature as, as reduction of sids.

[00:54:11] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Absolutely. Yeah. You, you get to see your child and you, you innately feel something's quite right. 

[00:54:17] Jodi Duval: Yeah. And they're feeling too. Mm. 

[00:54:21] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Tongue tie, of course, has a great impact on that because when you over paralyze, the tone drops away. And of course, the, the airway can be more easily occluded as the tone's dropped out because the fascia is pulling it into the space, especially if we have a narrower facial structure, smaller jaw, et cetera.

[00:54:43] Jodi Duval: Mm. 

[00:54:43] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So postpartum. We then have the, the suck, swallow, breathe, and the, the child has to, they come out and they use the morrow response and what's called the asymmetric tonic neck reflex to theoretically crawl up mum's body, bind to her, got the boob, and then activate. The tonic labyrinthine reflex. So that is the major ones that I look for in all people, whether it's a, a, a child.

[00:55:15] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Now, perimeter reflexes, I just need to point out, are completely normal. Up until maybe one to three years of age, they should be kind of starting to blend in and, and be integrated somewhere between one and two. In most instances, the literature says up to three is normal. So if we just use that, anything post three, if you are seeing the moral response where the child is doing these big startles, et cetera, or we turn the head and the whole body sort of moves or finding that, that we, we start trying to write and we turn the head and the arm wheel straighten and we'll go off the line.

[00:55:54] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: All of those are to do with perimeter reflexes and they are. An Arin. So primitive reflexes are perfectly normal, but past a certain age, we should have done enough movement to allow the frontal lobes to suppress them. They never, ever go away. They are always there. And if you get tired enough, fatigued, um, beat up enough, your nervous system will fail to suppress them because your frontal lobes are not engaged enough.

[00:56:24] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Now, one of the most interesting places we see that is in drunkenness, frontal lobes are now disengaged. Makes 

[00:56:31] Jodi Duval: sense? Yeah, makes sense. 

[00:56:33] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: The primitive reflexes come back out to play with us. So it also can occur with concussion, but in a, in a, a child where we shouldn't be seeing any drunkenness and we shouldn't hopefully have had a concussion, if you've got a five or a 7-year-old who is having, um.

[00:56:53] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: You know, issues with, uh, like dysgraphia, problems with swallowing, whole body turning, [00:57:00] lack of awareness of their body parts and space clumsiness. These are all associated with primitive reflexes. For whatever reason now, I believe they, they will stay there until the threat to the system is passed, no matter which one that is.

[00:57:16] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: You have to look for what's the underlying problem, remove that, and then train them forward. So again, the first and most prominent threat to life from a baby's point of view is either airway or nourishment. So if there's a tongue tie, it will cause a problem with both. Potentially it will fragment sleep, which is why we get these really fractious wakeful children who then can go on to develop things like silent reflux because the airway occlusion.

[00:57:49] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Causes contraction of their rib cage, which pushes on the stomach, which is a bulb that causes the contents of the stomach to regurgitate up the throat because you're just squeezing it nice and tight and straight up the spout it goes. Hmm. 

[00:58:06] Jodi Duval: So 

[00:58:06] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: that can then lead onto things like. A throat infection because as the particles go up, they can get lodged in the back of the sinuses and the eustachian tubes, which are almost completely flat in the first couple of years of life.

[00:58:20] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Donny, as the head grows that the eustachian tubes start to, to actually dive down diagonally to allow drainage of the fluids outta the ears. And this starts these really nasty, repetitive sickness, uh, phenomena, which can then lead on to tonsillitis and adenitis and burning of the back of the throat Husky voices.

[00:58:42] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: There's a bunch of stuff involved there. But it's all associated with things like the sucks, swallow, breathe, not working properly, the moral response being retained, and problems with the at nr. Now, I should also note the asymmetric tonic neck reflex is essential for yaking up the two sides of the brain to yaking up your eyes together to coordinate the left and the right side of the body.

[00:59:05] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So if we don't do that efficiently, we tend to find that things like walking, running, bike riding just don't work well because we, instead of doing this cross crawl pattern where one arm goes forward and the other leg goes forward, mm-hmm. We just don't do it. And that movement requires both hemisphere of the brain to be active and coordinating at the same time to send their kind of.

[00:59:33] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Signals at the same time to allow left and right to move front and back, to move all at the same time. Mm-hmm. So there's a lot going on there, and it's driven by the primitive reflexes, again, like the at and r is essential for helping teach the child to crawl all of the primitive reflexes. Take the baby from being a blob that relies entirely on its parents, its caregivers for safety [01:00:00] and security and movement to being independent, to go from lying still, to being able to sit up, to get into crawling positions, to start to move, and then elevate into an upright posture to be able to walk.

[01:00:14] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: That is the whole point of these primitive reflexes. Thus, once you've established good walking, running, et cetera. You shouldn't need the at TNR to actually be there. You shouldn't need as much of the moral response to be there. Thus, that movement should be suppressing them because the frontal lobe has wired down to have actual control of your body, and that's the whole purpose of them.

[01:00:41] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Now, when do we do our most, uh, impactful learning? 

[01:00:48] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[01:00:49] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Yeah. It's at night when you're asleep. Right? The energy that's needed for it too. Yep. So if you are fragmenting your airway because you are tongue tied, because you've got silent reflux, because you've got low tone in the midline, your ability to get enough quality sleep to harden and lay down those pathways is greatly diminished, which is why it can take much, much longer.

[01:01:13] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And we see this as an elongated problem. Thus, the reason why I would like to see a testing program from newborns test again at six months, look at them again at one year, two years, three years, hunting for tongue and oral ties and breathing airway fragmentation. 'cause while I focus on things like tongue tie, it's not the only thing.

[01:01:33] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Yeah. As we find with the domestication theory. 

[01:01:37] Jodi Duval: Yes. Yes. No, it is awesome. So I just wanted to, to say here quickly that, you know, for all of this, it makes so much sense now to have it laid out like that and the, um, the, the clues that you can get from clients when you are with them. And just to, it all makes sense.

[01:01:55] Jodi Duval: You can just, you can see it clearly along the whole path and then what might be to, to, to come for the future. If not, it's, it's sort of corrected or supported. 

[01:02:05] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Mm-hmm. That's it. Now I should then answer, we didn't answer what I do with my clients, which this is the perfect segue to it. Mm-hmm. All of my patients, if they're old enough, I will do a, uh, a visual recording.

[01:02:19] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: I use a program called Right Eyes. We measure what their eyes are doing. 

[01:02:22] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. Uh, 

[01:02:23] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: we do balance, uh, and gait assessment with them. We take photos of their posture to look for, are they head forward? Is their pelvis collapsed? Now, this is from however old they are. If they can manage to do the tests, I do a full neurological examination with them Physically.

[01:02:42] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: We look at things like blood pressures and oxygen, uh, carrying capacity around the system, what their reflexes are doing. We do the primitive reflex testing and we grade it, and then we use that as our baseline for where are we at, at four weeks, 12 weeks, however long it actually [01:03:00] takes. I measure. Mouth widths.

[01:03:03] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: I measure facial structure widths. We look for can the tongue move appropriately? Do you have enough strength to hold it up in the mouth? Is it spilling over? Are you too narrow in all of those positions? Is your jaw retruded back, et cetera? 

[01:03:19] Jodi Duval: Mm. And so 

[01:03:20] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: it doesn't matter what age, we need to catalog that.

[01:03:23] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And I implore all the, the practitioners who might be looking, if you are not starting to think about these things, or if it's not in your scope, find someone that is, or please start doing it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This, this is imperative because if you are facing an airway is not working properly, it will affect your sleep, which will affect how your brain wires itself up.

[01:03:45] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So we use all of those things to go, how is your brain functioning at this moment in time? 

[01:03:52] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. What 

[01:03:53] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: do we need to do? What do we need to add, what do we need to take away to bring you to your more, most open, uh, growth centered self? Because the goal is to get the child to bring themselves to a point that the kind of flower opens, because you are hardwired to do it for yourself, right?

[01:04:15] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Yeah. And so that's the cool thing with adults is that they've got all of the, the hard wiring there. They've just, instead of going from point A to B2C, they've kind of gone from point A to F to G to B to D to like, and so it's, it's an inefficient pathway. When you remove the impediment, whether it's a tongue tie or we'll send people to see ENTs, to have, uh, septal deviations corrected, or we'll send them to have adult expansion and, and things like sape done to actually grow the bone structure back to a, a more appropriate 'cause.

[01:04:52] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Again, if your airway is fragmented as a 50-year-old, you run greater risks of dementia. Mm-hmm. You run greater risk of heart disease, you run greater risk of depression, of anxiety because anything that fragments your airway, fragments, your sleep, lowers oxygen carrying capacity to the brain. The brain then has to go, am I more important than my foot?

[01:05:17] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Am I more important? And it has to change the vascular beds. It will tighten things up and it will keep the blood for the brain because the brain is the most narcissistic thing in your universe. It believes it's the most important thing. Along with the heart and the lungs. After that, the brain really drops everything else down.

[01:05:40] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: That's why we see symptoms so much more out at the periphery. You get bad skin because you're not sending blood and nourishment to the skin at the extremity. That's why people age on their hands and their feet first. That's why they keep complaining about things like, you know, I've got a fungal infection in my toe.

[01:05:58] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: You probably don't, you [01:06:00] probably have a lack of blood supply to the nail bed 'cause your brain does not care about your toes. Right. 

[01:06:07] Jodi Duval: Makes so much sense. 'cause '

[01:06:09] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: cause they treat it and they don't get better. 

[01:06:12] Jodi Duval: Yes. 

[01:06:13] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So that says that either it's bad treatment, it's not a real fungal infection or it's some other kind of facility.

[01:06:23] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And again, if that person's stuck in a fight flight, they're not healing anything, are they? Mm, fight flight brings all the blood to the center, it pulls it away from the skin. Thus we see the problems. Now again, if we have a midline structural fault, we're not breathing well at night, we've got narrow sinuses or otherwise, it creates the cycle that goes on.

[01:06:47] Jodi Duval: Absolutely. So 

[01:06:48] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: we will then do, uh, like primitive reflex retraining. We send them home with things like the 12 week program. We get them doing exercises like crawling or duck walks or whichever ones. Now some practitioners are very, oh, you've gotta do this exercise very specifically. And this exercise, I don't actually believe that.

[01:07:08] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: I believe if you've got one of the early gateway ones, which is Morrow, uh, suck, swallow, breathe at N-R-T-L-R or STNR, which are the main major gateways to everything else kind of growing out from there, you have to do enough of them. And our problem is. Everything's wired up from movement. We just don't know exactly how much movement that is.

[01:07:32] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So everyone talks about like 10,000 strokes or 10,000 steps. It's all made up. Like there's absolutely no science to any of that. But it's a nice number and it's acceptable number. 'cause if you do enough repetitions of something, it actually starts to wire in. So for some people, we'll send them to get a tongue tie release done and do the exercise.

[01:07:55] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And within six weeks everything's just gone. B and they're, they're off and running. Yeah. And in other people it takes one to two years because their nervous system is just so fatigued because it's been going on so long for them. And that I think also has an effect because of their epigenetics and you know, what other things have gone on in their life prior to that moment.

[01:08:18] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: But the idea is you have to. Find a way to bring them to safety. You have to find a way to get their frontal lobes to engage. You have to give them hope, and you have to make them feel cuddly. 

[01:08:32] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. 

[01:08:33] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Right. Cuddliness and, and like the, the concept of vitamin L love, right? Mm-hmm. They have to love themselves.

[01:08:42] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: They have to love outwardly. Now you can call it whatever else you want, but without hope and without that physical nourishment, touch is essential in this, right? Without that sense of safety, I'm good. It's very hard to rewire a 20 plus [01:09:00] year in the loop brain and go, oh, you're gonna be fine now. 

[01:09:05] Jodi Duval: Mm, absolutely.

[01:09:07] Jodi Duval: So important, and I think that's where the benefit comes from. Obviously, we'll talk about it now, but that. Sort of like domestic environment. I know it's not exactly about that, what you talk about, but that, but also with the, the relationships that you have in your life, but also that relationship, um, with a, a, a therapist, a practitioner, it's so important.

[01:09:28] Jodi Duval: It's that placebo impact because of the safety that you've created and the actual hope. It's the love and the hope. Yep. Really, really love this. All right, so let's talk about dome your, your paper. Yes. That you are, you are talking about domestication theory. This has really interested me when you said it right at the start of the, of the, our chat.

[01:09:49] Jodi Duval: So, um, talk me through it. 

[01:09:51] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Okay. So part of the way my brain works is it refuses to accept unprovable problems. There's no such thing as an unsolvable problem. It just means we haven't looked at it properly. Yeah, yeah. So. When I got interested in things like tongue tie, I was trying to solve my, my children for instance, and then expanding that out to everyone else.

[01:10:16] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So I wrote my book First Principles, which is about the concept of oral airway, functional mal development syndrome, or often. Mm-hmm. So oral airway is here, here, sinuses or what? A friend of mine, uh, jj, uh, calls the aerodigestive track. Mm-hmm. And it's functional because you can get to problems with this area in a variety of way.

[01:10:42] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: You could be born with it, you could have had an accident and broken your face and damage your nose. It's kind of in whatever way disturbs you from the normal best trajectory for your, your functional growth, which will interfere with the nervous system. It'll interfere with your oxygen levels. And this all interferes with the brain.

[01:11:03] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So that was where I was a few years ago. The problem is, is that it doesn't solve or explain all of our issues. It doesn't explain how we got to the tongue tie. Why did the tongue tie occur? Right. It just says that's a problem. So my goal and, and how I started, uh, in life from this thing called the Barker Hypothesis, which I found out about in 96 when I was at university, is that the environment and the state.

[01:11:36] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So the Barker Hypothesis basically says that the state of health and wellbeing in the mother in the two years prior to pregnancy affects the health outcomes of the child down to the third generation. 

[01:11:49] Jodi Duval: Hmm. 

[01:11:50] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Right? Yeah. It, it's a big thing. So I've, I've used that as fuel for all of my thinking because it's been substantiated.

[01:11:58] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So that means we are [01:12:00] looking for what has gone on. Mom, but it's not just mom, it's mom and dad because like to make the placenta, 50% of the placenta and all of the hormonal control and regulation and epigenetics and nourishment comes from dad. That is the sperm in action. Now, if he's got problem with his methylation tags, which actually get picked up by the sperm as it goes through the vast defen just before ejaculation.

[01:12:28] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Then 

[01:12:30] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: we're gonna have poor quality sperm making a poor quality placenta leading to bad nourishment, activating things like the fear paralysis and setting off that cascade. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So I have then come up with the concept I call domestication theory. 

[01:12:49] Jodi Duval: Mm. 

[01:12:49] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Domestication theory says that our current problems, so it's a framework to understand how all of our health is in decline.

[01:12:59] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So human beings have just lived through the. Gentlest, safest, most growth focused 80 years of human existence. We've had the least war, the least death of people. And people are terrified at this moment of how unsafe it is. It's an absolute, um, kind of fascinating scenario. Like, and I think some of that is because we are, we are so, um, cocoon that we don't realize actually how good we have it.

[01:13:29] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Mm-hmm. 

[01:13:30] Jodi Duval: But. 

[01:13:31] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Some of the impacts of, uh, that cocooning is intensive acidification. Mm-hmm. And the more intensively we've acidified ourselves living in close proximity with electromagnetic pollution and PFAS chemicals and the water supply and fluoride and chlorine, which knock out iodine, which affects the thyroid, which affects how the thyroid hormones create the brain in the, the, the unusual period and is, uh, associated with lowering IQ and the amount of noise in our environment, which is shown to create an increase in cortisol in the mum.

[01:14:11] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And so all of that acidification has an impact on the health and wellbeing of the mother. But further to that, the impacts of acidification have allowed or caused, uh. Women to choose less violent, less punch you in the face partners. Mm-hmm. Now, before everyone out there jumps on me and says, that's a misogynistic, you can't say that.

[01:14:36] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Um, I just did. And it's still true. And the reason why it's interesting and true is. That because we're in an environment now in the, the western world where you don't need a brutish, thuggish violent partner. You are choosing for different qualities. Mm-hmm. Even a hundred years ago, you were much more [01:15:00] likely to be kind of out in a less safe environment and get assaulted.

[01:15:03] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So having kind of a brutish person around to keep you physically safe was much more important. Now we have police and we have kind of less guns around, and we've had, you know, far less things. Now we've got a media that that kind of highlights every possible bad thing, and so people feel kind of less safe.

[01:15:24] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: But it, it's not because we are less safe, it's because we know about it more. We didn't have the internet telling us 24 7 what was going on. 

[01:15:34] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[01:15:35] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So the interesting thing about it, as you choose for greater emotional range, greater intellect. The genes that you select for. Reduce testosterone. Hmm. Reduce aggressiveness.

[01:15:51] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: But that reduction causes a delay in neural crest cell migration, which is stem cells that come from the neural cord, which becomes the spinal cord and the brain, and they migrate forward to form your cheeks, your nose, your chin, your tongue. And then at week five, break off to become the thyroid, which is also part and parcel of this.

[01:16:12] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Mm-hmm. So there is a consequence to having a less violent partner. Now, again, I'm not saying any woman out there shouldn't want a better quality of spouse. Right. I don't think anyone should be being punched in the face. That's not the point. No. But if we don't look at it for what it is, that there is a genetic consequence to it because the gene four X also has kind of z and f plus and all these other things on that chromosome and that causes.

[01:16:44] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Smaller facial features, smaller jaws, smaller airways, less strong cartilage. Um, it also causes elongation. So fundamentally there's a whole bunch of, of research that basically points to these prolonged adolescents. Mm-hmm. So we don't cognitively mature in the same way. Mm-hmm. We aren't as the males, so it, it's called a loss of dimorphism.

[01:17:13] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So females are less kind of traditionally curvy female, and the males are less kind of angular strong. We are getting a physical occurrence of similar body structure, bluntly put, and again, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but this is what the research says, more grubbiness. And if you actually look out in our society, the statistics for greater amounts of weight gain, greater amounts of diabetes in like seven year olds.

[01:17:45] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: All of this is occurring because of our intensive urbanization. We're actually less threatened but more stressed. And with the stress we hunt for more carbohydrate laden foods, not made any [01:18:00] better by our food manufacturing. Scientists out there choosing to make, um, hyper palatable, highly hyper processed foods that have the right crunch and texture and sweet and salt, and you, you name it.

[01:18:16] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: And I used to think those people were evil, right? But they're not. They are just doing their job. Their job is better, do a better job. To sell the product, right? Yeah. So it's, it's up to us to change our environment and that's what everything comes down to is it's not, uh, you know, blame something. It's how do we make our environment more suited for humans?

[01:18:39] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Because we are developing in an intensive evolution. So we are not evolving in a normal kind of a hundred thousand year cycle. We've evolved rapidly in the last 80 years. We have had a massive decline in our physical structure of face. We've had a massive decline in our neurocognitive function 40 years ago it was one in 10,000 for a SD.

[01:19:06] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: It's now one in 34 in most Western worlds, right. Um, that is not better diagnosis. There is something affecting us, which I believe is the framework, is domestication theory. And the whole point of domestication theory is that intensive urbanization makes us make different choices, exposes us to different, uh, physical threats and pollutants that we, we, you go back a thousand years, we didn't have the PAS contraceptive medication.

[01:19:35] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: We didn't have the fluoride in the water. Granted, look, I'm not saying that drinking pollute water is such a great idea. Do I want clean water? Of course I do. It's not like I want to give up the benefits of the city, but what it's kind of saying is we need to give greater consideration to those pollutants, our urban environment, our amount of physical activity, the amount of toxic pollutant light.

[01:19:59] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So instead of like, a lot of this has gotten worse since our government's decided that we wanted to have cheap. Light sources, right? So the cheap LED light source has intensified the amount of blue light exposure that is negative for our genetics. Hmm. Right? Absolutely. It affects your melatonin and your circadian rhythm cycles, and therefore all of your hormonal cycles, the amount of cortisol, stress, et cetera, the amount of noise from our environment increases the cortisol, which affect, and it just has all of these doom loops that affect one way or the other.

[01:20:36] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: So again, the problem is, I'm not saying we should be giving up cities. Yeah. There's a lot of great benefit to city because the city gave us the capacity to specialize. It gave me the capacity to do the research and the work that I'm doing because I'm not being a subsistent peasant farmer. 

[01:20:52] Jodi Duval: Mm-hmm. Right.

[01:20:54] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Yeah. We need probably more, um, you know, live [01:21:00] environment within our urban, uh, reclines. We need to be, uh, making those sora bulbs readily available. Instead of it being a cheap three wat bulb that's full of nasty blue light and a electromagnetic pollution. We need these very specialized bulbs, or we need to go back to incandescent light bulbs that have a much more gentle effect on the system.

[01:21:22] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: There's lots of things we can do, and the point of domestication theory is it, I, I don't have all the answers for what those stressors are, but they fit into that box that says the city environment is what is negatively impacting us, creating us to be not fit for purpose, which is survival. Growing decent humans.

[01:21:44] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: That's our innate purpose. All those other things we do like making artwork or a building or you know, research that's all on top of growing decent children and raising them to be decent humans. That's what I think's the most important. So we need to be looking at that, that environment that we find ourselves in and try to make better choices and changes.

[01:22:07] Jodi Duval: Yeah. Yeah. And people to educate those changes and support those changes like yourself. Yeah. And to bring these ideas to the world like you have. What an incredible mind that you have. I am. Blown away. I, I'm so happy I found you to actually have this conversation and to be, um, you know, privy to, to, to your knowledge and to, to see it presented in this way.

[01:22:33] Jodi Duval: I think, um, I'll be following everything that you do for, for sure from now on. Uh, thank you very much. I would love to see what, what else is to come so that that's, it makes all, it's so much, makes so much sense, 

[01:22:47] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Scott. It's so much. That's kind of the key is that Yeah, it has to make sense. Yeah. Because it doesn't then I've got the model wrong.

[01:22:54] Jodi Duval: Yeah. 

[01:22:55] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: But again, if people have other things that they can help me and say, well, look, I think that needs to be in the model, please send it to me. Mm. 

[01:23:02] Jodi Duval: Right. 

[01:23:03] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: As I say, it's, it's, it's a framework. It just needs more data poked into it for things that we need to look at and then we kind of need to make this, this grassroot groundswell of people coming together to force governmental change.

[01:23:18] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Because the problem that we have is that all of our societies, in my opinion, are gonna get really bad here. 

[01:23:26] Jodi Duval: Hmm. 

[01:23:27] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: They've become fascist. We have big business and big government telling us Yeah. What we need, not us saying we need better environments. Please. It's, yeah, it's obvious corporatism and money is leading everything, which I'm not super keen on.

[01:23:44] Jodi Duval: No, I 

[01:23:44] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: wasn't meaning to get political, but yeah. You know, it's got to do with our health. Please come together. We need the, these groups so that we can actually become big enough to push back against the corporatism that has become our [01:24:00] governments. 

[01:24:00] Jodi Duval: Yeah, I totally am bear with you on that. Absolutely. So, Douglas, Scott, I have taken enough of your time and you have so graciously given it to me, so thank you so much.

[01:24:11] Jodi Duval: I wanna mention, and you can add to this list, but your book first principles, which you've shown and mentioned, your, um, brand of supplements, optimal sleep, airway health. Absolutely. Um, yep. Your, your clinic Advanced re Oh, advanced rehab. So that is there. And I'll put all these links in the show notes as well.

[01:24:32] Jodi Duval: Um, and you also have Opti Human, which is your courses and yeah, so many things you're doing and your writing papers. Wow. So thank you so much. I really appreciate my time here with you today and I am sure that everyone is gonna get so much out of this as well. So thank you so much. 

[01:24:51] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: You're most welcome.

[01:24:52] Dr. Scott Wustenberg: Thank you very much for having me. 

[01:24:54] Jodi Duval: It's absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode on the Smarter Not Harder podcast. And we are incredibly grateful to Dr. Scott and sharing his expertise on primitive reflex integration, neuroplasticity, holistic approach to human healing, nutrition, and creation of an an amazing brand, which, uh, blew me away.

[01:25:16] Jodi Duval: Um, you know, the, the purpose behind it so much more than I had thought of just the ease of, of integration into a routine and getting children to actually consume medicines in a nice way. Um, so very profound. And here's here component and looking at this domestication theory is, was a fascinating end to this conversation and left me thinking for the rest of the night.

[01:25:41] Jodi Duval: So really, really enjoyed these conversations. I hope you do too. And if you found this, today's conversation valuable, we'd love for you to leave us a review share, like, and, and, um, share this episode. You can find out on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your preferred platform, as you know, and your feedback also helps us reach more curious minds.

[01:25:59] Jodi Duval: So tell us what you wanna see. And don't forget also to subscribe on YouTube. We have a lot more short videos coming, so stay updated on all our latest episodes there as well. And thank you so much for joining us. Until next time, stay curious, keep learning, and we'll be back with another episode of our 1 cent Solutions to our $64,000 questions.

[01:26:24] Jodi Duval: All right, have a good night or day everyone.

Find more from Dr. Scott Wustenberg:

Website: https://www.optimalsleepairwayhealth.com

OptiHuman Project: https://www.optihuman.com.au

Advance Rehab Clinic: https://www.advancerehab.com.au

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