Dr. Linda Kiley | Bladder Health, Peptides & Pelvic Repair
February 18, 2026
In this episode of the Smarter Not Harder Podcast, Dr. Linda Kiley gives us one-cent solutions to life’s $64,000 questions that include:
- Why is pelvic pain so frequently misdiagnosed when the true driver is musculoskeletal spasm rather than infection?
- How can specialized urine testing and biofilm awareness uncover hidden bladder infections that standard labs miss?
- Why are interstitial cystitis, endometriosis, IBS, migraines, fibromyalgia, and post-viral syndromes often interconnected through systemic inflammation?
- How do gut dysbiosis and increased intestinal permeability contribute to chronic bladder pain and urinary dysfunction?
- Why is validating a patient’s symptoms — rather than dismissing them — one of the most powerful therapeutic tools in medicine?
Who is Dr. Linda Kiley?
Dr. Linda Kiley is a board-certified urogynecologist and reconstructive pelvic surgeon with more than 30 years of clinical experience. A graduate of UCLA School of Medicine, she completed her OB-GYN residency at George Washington University and went on to subspecialize in urogynecology and pelvic reconstructive surgery. Throughout her career, she has focused on complex gynecologic and bladder conditions, combining surgical expertise with a deep commitment to understanding the root causes of chronic pelvic and urinary pain.
Over time, Dr. Kiley expanded her practice beyond traditional surgical care after recognizing that many patients with conditions such as interstitial cystitis, endometriosis, pelvic floor dysfunction, and chronic bladder pain were not finding relief through conventional approaches alone. Drawing on her background in molecular biology and a growing expertise in functional and integrative medicine, she now incorporates advanced urine testing, biofilm-targeted therapies, peptide protocols, hormone optimization, and gut-focused interventions to address systemic inflammation and restore function.
Based in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida, Dr. Kiley leads Ultra Health and Wellness, where she blends urogynecology, functional medicine, and personalized care. She is passionate about validating patients who have long been dismissed, particularly women who are told their symptoms are “in their head.” Known for her thorough history-taking and hands-on evaluation style, as well as her expansive therapeutic toolbox, Dr. Kiley is committed to improving the quality of life for patients with some of medicine’s most challenging chronic conditions.
What did Dr. Linda and Dr. Scott discuss?
00:00 Women told “it’s in your head” & the cost of dismissal
02:00 Dr. Linda Kiley’s background in urogynecology & surgery
05:00 Pelvic pain explained: why musculoskeletal spasm is often missed
08:30 What real pelvic floor therapy looks like (and what it’s not)
12:00 Breathing, myofascial release & internal pelvic work
16:00 When pelvic therapy works fast — even after 30 years of pain
20:00 From surgery to functional medicine: why conventional care fell short
23:00 Bladder pain & advanced urine testing beyond standard labs
27:00 Hidden infections, biofilms & why cultures often miss the cause
31:00 Bladder instillation therapy: lidocaine, gentamicin & inflammation control
36:00 Interstitial cystitis, gut dysbiosis & the bladder microbiome connection
40:00 Endometriosis, IBS, migraines & the inflammation link
44:00 Why validating patients is therapeutic in itself
48:00 Anti-inflammatory tools: peptides, LDN, cordyceps & more
53:00 Zonulin, leaky gut & how loratadine supports gut repair
57:00 Can 90% of IC patients improve? A new perspective
1:00:00 Living smarter not harder: movement, purpose & self-care
Full Transcript:
Dr. Linda Kiley: [00:00:00] She would have a, a strange, weird symptom, whatever. Unusual. Okay, sure. Yeah. And they would say, oh, she's crazy. Send her to sight. And I hated that because I didn't think these women were crazy. Sure.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And the, the number of women that I've seen over my career that have come in thinking they're crazy, actually, having been told by multiple people that they're crazy, that were not crazy, but they acted crazy 'cause they were so, they kind of bought into it once they solved their problem, actually normalized and started to act like a normal human being human and realized they weren't crazy and, you know,
Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: They cry, they, you know, it's like, oh my God, somebody actually believed me. And, you know.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. I mean, I think urinary pain is such a big problem. Bladder pain, pelvic pain, like we talked about. Why aren't those tests more standard? Like, why if you have urinary pain and you do the culture of standard stuff, it's negative for the four organisms or whatever.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Like why isn't there. The next step. Is it because just doctors don't [00:01:00] understand what to do with that data or, or what's the sense?
Dr. Scott Sherr: Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Smarter or Not Harder podcast, where we give you 1 cent solutions to $64,000 questions. I'm your host again today. My name is Dr. Scott Cher, and it's a pleasure to be back with all of you. So today I had a really cool guest, very interesting topics about urogynecology, Dr.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Linda, Kylie and I actually met Linda through the transcriptions company. She actually started using some of our products, methylene Blue Corti, intro Immune and having some really great benefits. And when she told me what she, what she did and how she was doing, I was like, I need to have you on the podcast.
Dr. Scott Sherr: This is great information that so many people don't know about. So here's a bio on Linda to get started. She's a graduate of University of California at Los Angeles. So UCLA School of Medicine completed her residency in OB GYN at ge George Washington University in dc. She's a board certified physician and subspecialist in OB [00:02:00] GYN and uro, organicology and reconstructive plastic or pelvic surgery with over 30 years of experience and decade of a really devoted time to minimally invasive surgical procedures for difficult gynecologic problems.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Um, and she's also very much involved in sort of the functional natural methods of getting people better. She uses peptides, she use, uses off-label drugs. She's involved in the International Peptide Society, uh, anti-aging medicine, A four M. She's been involved in that too. Excessive experience in training people for hormonal disorders, menopausal symptoms, and really challenging.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Challenging patients overall. And she uses things like peptides, weight management, IV nutritional therapy, and very cool. She actually holds a fourth degree black belt in TaeKwonDo and as a master instructor, and we talked about that during a little bit of the podcast at the end as well. So in this podcast, we dove into some topics that I haven't really talked about a lot here, or really in my clinical practice.
Dr. Scott Sherr: They don't have a huge amount of direct relevance, but I refer people over to people like Linda whenever I can. So we talked about. [00:03:00] Many different things. We talked about pelvic pain, the musculoskeletal aspect of pelvic pain being the major thing that's underdiagnosed and actually sending people over to pelvic therapy can be transformative.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Transformative for patients. And that's really amazing because most of these patients get written off and sent to psychiatrist and there's a lot of musculoskeletal aspects of here you can do a lot of good. Then we transitioned over to bladder, the bladder pain, bladder spasm. Uh, we talked about interstitial cystitis for a long period of time.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Significant interest to me because this is actually a patient population that has the highest suicide rate and. Often gets sent to psych, but she does advanced testing, like urine culture, advanced urine cultures, and finding bugs, hiding in the bladder that regular doctors aren't seeing, and also looking at biofilms and how to break them up.
Dr. Scott Sherr: She uses really cool ways of actually instilling various types of things like lidocaine, tobramycin, uh, gentamycin, other kinds of antibiotics and other antimicrobials, anti and also anti-inflammatories, like, uh, like, uh, like steroids as well in the bladder. [00:04:00] Basically significantly help these patients. And I, you know, she gave me a statistic or a thought that she thinks, she actually thinks that about 90% or more of IC patients, interstitial cystitis patients can be significantly helped by this kind of pattern or this, this kind of intervention.
Dr. Scott Sherr: And others. We also talked about gut dysbiosis. We talked about TMJ causing bladder pain and pelvic pain. So everything's connected and Linda has a great way of bringing it all together here. So we all talked about Linda's inflammatory stack, her three ways to lift some smarter, not harder, and her black belt as well.
Dr. Scott Sherr: So without further ado, please enjoy this episode with Dr. Linda Kylie. If you do like it, don't forget to like and subscribe below so you never miss an episode. Without further ado, here you go. Enjoy. Hi Linda, it's nice to see you.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Nice to see you too, Scott.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Well, thanks for being here. You know, you and I had a conversation around the transcriptions company.
Dr. Scott Sherr: You were interested in some of the products and you were telling me about your work as a a urogynecologist and doing functional urogynecology. This is something that's not very common. And I thought it'd be great to have you on the [00:05:00] podcast, kind of talk about your practice, talk about some very unique things that you see in clinical practice that are not well understood from outside of probably your clinical practice and very few people that are like you.
Dr. Scott Sherr: And so the first thing I wanted to talk about was pelvic pain. I know that you said that maybe three things that people come to see you oftentimes. One is pelvic pain, another there's bladder issues, like to the, the two main things. Then things around the bladder and then, and HRT might, might be the third one.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Right. And so let's start off with the pelvis, the pelvic pain. Gimme a little bit of a color there. You know, I help me understand your frameworks. How do you think about this? How do people present? And then what are some of the ways that you kind of intervene and try to help here?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Well, you know, the most important thing I was taught this way back in medical school is taking a good history.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Hmm. So one of the things that I like about my practice and my practice style is that I really just let my patients talk. I ask them questions. Directed questions, but I really want [00:06:00] to get, I wanna try to focus in on exactly what the pain is, like where it is, you know, taking a good history like a, like a physician is supposed to do.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure. Yeah. I lost art. Yes.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah, that's, it seems. Um, and that's, that's one of the reasons why I can't do my initial evaluations remotely because I need to not only interact with my patients like, like we're doing now, and, but I actually need to be in the room with them and I see them see their body language.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, and then I need to examine them, you know, because the next part is physical examination. So, you know, we were taught back in the day, history and physical. So, um, pelvic pain can encompass so many things, and it's usually multifactorial. It may start out as one thing, but then become a number of other things.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So. You know, I try to identify, you know, when did it start? Are there any things that are related to it? Make it better, worse, you know, the [00:07:00] usual questions that one would ask. Mm-hmm. Um, one of the things that I have found really, uh, seems to be biggest problem with pelvic pain is that because people are not thinking about the musculoskeletal system in the pelvis.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Mm-hmm. You know, the pelvis is a big, you know, bones with a big ball of muscles inside, right?
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yep.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And then all, all these connective tissues and nerves and all this stuff.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So, you know, if you hurt your shoulder or you lift too much weight and your muscle gets sore, you know, whatever, you know, if it's your arm or your leg or whatever, you, you know what you did right.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And you know why it hurts and stuff like that.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Right? Right.
Dr. Linda Kiley: If you pull a muscle in your pelvis, you know, it can manifest as urinary frequency. Constipation, pain with intercourse, just pelvic pain burning, uh, I mean, there's so many. It can seem like a urinary tract infection. It can seem like a yeast [00:08:00] infection.
Dr. Linda Kiley: It can seem like just a ton of things. And sometimes it can happen concomitantly with other problems too. I mean, there can be infections there and stuff like that, but, um, and sometimes the infection will incite the muscle spasm because, you know, the nerves are irritated. Sure. And then they back and all of that.
Dr. Linda Kiley: But, so one of the things I, I probably send at at least 80% of my patients for pelvic therapy and I have a cadre and pelvic therapist that I trust that I know, know what to do. They're not gonna make 'em do squeezing exercises or put biofeedback for stimulators or anything. I, I don't, that's not what it's about at all.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And that's the other,
Dr. Scott Sherr: uh,
Dr. Linda Kiley: misconception I think a lot of people have. They think of pelvic therapy as kegel exercises and biofeedback. It's strengthening and there's this crazy share that is being sold, and I'm not gonna say the brand name, but don't buy a chair for incontinence. That's all I have to say.
Dr. Linda Kiley: It's not, that's not what you need. An actual person with [00:09:00] training who can also evaluate and then provide the right kind of therapy so that you're not, you know, if you pulled your muscle lifting weight, you wouldn't go back and lift a heavier weight more times, you know? But that's basically what's happening when you're trying to squeeze these muscles that are already in spasm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So,
Dr. Scott Sherr: right.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, my job is to explain that and then get them to somebody who can actually work with them properly and get them outta pain. And the percentage of patients who respond well is extremely high. I mean, at least 80% of my patients that I send for pelvic therapy come back saying, wow, you were right.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know that I'm amazed I wasn't expecting to get better, but I'm so much better. You know? So.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Is it, one of the things with, with pelvic therapy is that probably depends on the person, but giving a sense of the kinds of things that you're sending over to pelvic therapy, what kind of, how long it takes them to get better.
Dr. Scott Sherr: So is it something that's people will get better very quickly typically? Or is it, [00:10:00] I mean obviously it gonna depend on the situation, but what's your general feel for that?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, interestingly, I've had patients, I, I had one lady who had been in pain for 30 years, literally.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Wow.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, and never been sent for pelvic therapy.
Dr. Linda Kiley: She, I mean, her quality of life was horrible 30 years and she was better in a month. I mean, like almost completely pain free. She needed to continue pelvic therapy, like, you know, intermittently,
Dr. Scott Sherr: right. Yeah. Maintenance.
Dr. Linda Kiley: But she made massive progress really quickly. I have some patients who have so many other factors.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, you know, if you have scoliosis or you have oth, you know, back issues that are chronic and you have, you know, other types of things that feed into this, you may not get. As much better as quickly, but you almost always are gonna get a significant improvement. And it may take more time and it may take time to just figure out all the different moving parts to it.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Because I mean, I've had patients with TMJ [00:11:00] who had pelvic spasm, so they need to work out the TMJ. Yeah. Yeah. It's kinda interesting. Wow. So you never know where it's gonna come from.
Dr. Scott Sherr: So, so what you're saying here, Linda, just to kinda break this down, is that pelvic pain, musculoskeletal etiologies are vastly misdiagnosed or, or not even thought about is what it's come down
Dr. Linda Kiley: to.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Absolutely true. Um, and you know, unfortunately, I also sometimes see patients being referred for pelvic therapy, um, to the wrong kind of therapy, you know? Okay. There's, there's all different levels of training and so somebody who hasn't really been trained to deal with myofascial spasm, 'cause that's basically
Dr. Scott Sherr: what we're talking Okay.
Dr. Linda Kiley: But, you know, and, and puts them on a program of, uh, squeezing or, you know, stimulation or whatever, that patient's not gonna get better with that person. So I have to trust the therapist that I know that they're gonna do what needs to be done with this patient. But, um, um, I'm [00:12:00] sorry. I get, I guess I got off tangent, but yes, it's ly a diagnosed and it often, if, if they do get sent for therapy, if they don't get sent to the right person, they may not get better.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And I've seen it also where they say, oh, oh yeah, I did therapy. It didn't help me at all. And I'm like, well, what therapy did you have? You know, who did you see? What did they do?
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. So maybe you can break down some of those types of therapy. You mentioned sort of like myofascial therapy as being one of them.
Dr. Scott Sherr: What, what are the major sort of forks in the road where you go like, okay, you need this type of therapy, you need this type of therapy. Like, do you have, do you do that kind of assessment or is it somebody you, you send, you send them to somebody for that
Dr. Linda Kiley: assessment? Um, I do the assessment initially, so, mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: What I do is basically I look for, um, you know. Depending upon the history and all that stuff. I'll check for, you know, hypersensitivity to the nerves. I'll check for reflexes and then I'll check for muscle spasm and tenderness in the pelvis. So I do a vaginal exam and a rectal exam, and I check all the muscles and I, I go one by one, you know, basically the clock.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Wow. Basically hit all the [00:13:00] muscles and ask them, you know, and, and I'll press lightly, and if they say that's uncomfortable or ow, I mean, sometimes I have 'em jump off the table and I'm barely touching 'em, you know?
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure, sure,
Dr. Linda Kiley: sure. And, uh, so, so that's spasm. So I tell them, okay, you're having spasm and I'll, I'll write on my referral where I found the spasm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Okay. So, you know, I'll give them a written referral to a, a pelvic therapist and I'll say, you know, this is, you need to see the therapist. I'm not gonna give you the types of exercises. I mean, I actually, I have a YouTube channel called the Holistic Hero Gynecologist, and I did a, um. A little exercise, video and time of like stretching and things like that.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Just because I know there are people out there who get to a pelvic therapist who knows what they're doing. And so I didn't, you know, there's a lot that miss that's missed by not being able to do internal work. And pelvic therapists are trained to do internal work, but um, or a good one.
They
Dr. Scott Sherr: go inside, they go inside the vagina, they go inside the rectum and they're [00:14:00] working on
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yes.
Dr. Scott Sherr: The muscles while you're doing various types of things typically. Right. So,
Dr. Linda Kiley: yep.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Like what would that look like? So you're doing certain sort of like bearing down while somebody's, you know, working on part of like the, the vaginal muscles or something like that, or,
Dr. Linda Kiley: so generally speaking, it's, there's a lot of breathing exercise that gets done.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You'd be amazed. Okay. I don't, or maybe you already know this, at how many people do not know how to belly breathe. Mm-hmm. And they don't breathe normally. You know, if you don't breathe normally and you're breathing just with your chest, you're not oxygenating yourself well. Um, your muscles are not moving the way they're supposed to.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Your diaphragm's not working the way it's supposed to. That can disrupt how your functions too. I mean, it's not just your microbiome for sure. You know? So, um, breathing, teaching them how to breathe is a, a really big part of pelvic therapy. Interestingly, I'm not surprised.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: If I have somebody who, and I'm evaluating it, I'm seeing that, you know, when I ask them to breathe and all I get is, you know, the chest movement and Okay, here's what I want you to do.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I [00:15:00] want you to go home, lay your stomach and breathe. You can't just breathe laying on your stomach. So, very
Dr. Scott Sherr: difficult to do. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. I mean, I guess you could, but it's, it's not so easy, so it's not natural. So, um, anyway, you know, I leave the, the nuts and bolts to the pelvic therapist.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure, sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: When they came, when they come back, I ask them, you know, what did you do?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Especially if they're not getting better, you know, well, what kind of things did you do? What did they do with you? How did they, you know, all of that kinda stuff with h See. If there's something that doesn't add up, I might actually send 'em to someone different. Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, or I might say, okay, well let me reassess and let's see if there's something I'm missing.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, you're not getting better. What else could it be? And um, so, you know, I always backtrack and, and clearly, you know, inflammatory disorders, fibromyalgia, I mean, women with fibromyalgia will often have myofascial pelvic pain too.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Makes sense. Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Fibromyalgia trigger points, right?
Dr. Scott Sherr: Right.
Dr. Linda Kiley: [00:16:00] So they need pelvic therapy, but they also need all of the other, you know, the mitochondrial look forward and the right energetics and the inflammation reduction and, you know, we have to go into that and then we go to the microbiome and, you know, so then we start digging into.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, the other stuff, right? And that's really fun. I, I like doing that stuff.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Part of the interruption. This episode is brought to you by Health Optimization Medicine and Practice Association, a nonprofit organization, training practitioners had optimized health rather than treat disease. For this episode, check out our chronobiology module several times.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Dr. Linda talked about circadian rhythms, sleep and inflammation. So you've gotta check out this module. It's a great way to learn how to optimize sleep in our patients from a cellular perspective, looking at hormones, looking at neurotransmitters, looking at micronutrients and everything else as well. So check it out@homehope.org and save 10% on this module, or any module of the essential certification by using code POD 10 at checkout.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Now, back to the show,
Dr. Linda Kiley: right? It's very rewarding.
Dr. Scott Sherr: It can, it absolutely is. And, and so when did you [00:17:00] decide in clinical practice to start adding in some of the more integrative, functional kinds of things? Was it something that you kind of, because as a practitioner working in the conventional world, you know, it's not that easy to start doing this kind of thing.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Um, were there a couple of patients that you saw. Early on that kind of, kind of gave you this idea? Or was it, uh, additional experience in, in different ways that kind of made you say, okay, like I'm gonna start doing more the sort of functional integrative route. And, and from there, maybe talk about a little bit like what your workup might be in somebody that was coming in as well.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Okay, sure.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Well, yeah. So I got started with this out of restoration because, you know, so urogynecologist typically were surgeons, right? You know? Yes. Gynecology and, and urogynecology is, is considered a, a surgical specialty. Yep. Urogynecology and reconstructive pelvic surgery is the name of the subspecialty.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So, um, and, and you know, as a surgeon, when you're trained, one of the things that you get told is, you [00:18:00] know, a chance to cut is a chance to cure and all that. And I've, I always loved surgery. I have good hand eye coordination. I'm a musician since I was five. You know, I, I've always loved fixing things, but I like fixing things not only with my hands.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I like fixing things with my brain too. So, um, when things didn't go as I expected, um, I, and I knew I was missing something that I, I can't deal with that. That's just not, that doesn't sit well with my nature. I, I'm not the kind of person to go, I, I don't know, you know, go see someone else. I can't do that.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I might say, you know, you might wanna get a consult with someone else, but then I, I wanna figure out what it is I'm missing and why I didn't solve this problem for them. Mm-hmm. Or help them solve this problem. So, um, you know, I've always believed that the body wants to heal itself. That's something that I believe since, you know, before medical school, um, and always had some level of, you know, non-traditional.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I mean, [00:19:00] I was going to a chiropractor when I was a kid, when I hurt my back. So, you know, I learned a little bit about alternative medicine and stuff.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So it was a little more open-minded, I guess, than some of my colleagues too. Some of the more eso. Things in medicine. And as I learned about, you know, I learned more about hormone management.
Dr. Linda Kiley: We were taught a very basic way to do it. That's very lackadaisical in my opinion. Um, I learned more about that. I learned, I started learning about peptides and I start, you know, I, before I went to medical school, I did a master's degree in some and molecular biology.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Ah,
Dr. Linda Kiley: okay. We spent all this time, I mean, this was a long time ago, but we spent all this time on DNA and cellular processes and all these things about celling structure and, you know, all this great stuff that mitochondria, the endoplasmic reticulum and all these great things.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And I got to medical school and they're like, yeah, you know?
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah,
Dr. Linda Kiley: yeah. That, yeah, this is what a cell looks like. You learn,
Dr. Scott Sherr: then you forget it.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, this is what Hodgkin's looks like [00:20:00] on a slide, you know, and stuff. And it's like, okay, well that's, that's what the cell looks like. What's going on inside the cell?
Dr. Linda Kiley: We didn't talk about that too much, you know? So anyway. Kind of gradually getting into, you know, learning about, I learned about Lotus Naltrexone and I went, you know, I learned about some, like more esoteric things and then it just kept me digging, you know? Um, I, I heard about A four M, so I took some courses there and, you know, that led me to peptides and to, you know, it just kind of kept going.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And the more I learn, the more I do, and the more things I could fix, you know, like people would get better. I'd be like, oh, that's great. I can do this now. You know? And so it was a gradual thing, but it was primarily born of frustration of not being able to fix things in the traditional way and realizing that it was falling short and not giving my patients what they deserved.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So,
Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah. I, I get it. Well, I appreciate that, that context. And I think a lot of us, a lot of people in the world of integrative medicine, [00:21:00] peptides, you know, these kinds of things are, are, are getting there because they got frustrated with the conventional side of things and the lack of capacity to. Do a lot outside of the small amounts that we can do to keep people from staying outta the hospital or
Dr. Linda Kiley: Right.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Recovering basically from a surgery and things like that.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Um, as far as your framework now, when you work with people, Linda and I do wanna ask about the bladder in a minute too.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Sure.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Um, but, um, do you have a basic framework that you use for everybody, or is it change, like if, if you're, if you're coming in for like a functional integrative workup, are there some like main things that you do for everybody that comes through the door, or is it very individual depending on what they're coming in for?
Dr. Linda Kiley: It's really individual. Um, you know, I definitely do a lot of gut microbiome studies, but I don't do them on everyone. Okay. You know, first of all, a really good one is expensive and not everybody has the resources to do all of that. I mean, I have some patients who come in and say, I do everything. I don't care.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I don't care what it costs. Most of them don't. So empirically I'll do some, you know, I, I will do tests based on [00:22:00] what I'm getting from them. Whatever they've had before, what they haven't had that I think would be useful. I really, I think it needs to be an individual thing. I don't have a protocol. I don't really sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I don't tend to follow protocols because everybody's different, you know?
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. No, I think that's super important that we can't follow, like the ER algorithm all the time if somebody comes in with chest pain. Right. And this is actually where I wanna get to bladder pain, because, like, let's talk about the bladder, because you mentioned the gut microbiota.
Dr. Scott Sherr: You've, you talked a little bit about this with me when you and I chatted, uh, before regarding the presentation of bladder pain. Bladder, excuse me, bladder pain, discomfort. Tell me how you think about this, how people present. What have you found over the years as you work this up that's maybe surprising for people that are listening that they wouldn't think of, oh, this is causing, you know, bladder pain or bladder discomfort.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Absolutely. It really runs the gamut. So the first thing I do is, um, after I've taken their history and I do their. [00:23:00] Exam, you know, as an exam. Yeah. For myofascia stuff, I mean, a huge percentage, if not a hundred percent, it's really, really close. Have myofascial, uh, component of that. So I know, I see. Pretty much they're gonna go for pelvic therapy.
Dr. Linda Kiley: That may not be their only problem. So I also do, I do a very highly, uh, specific type of urinary evaluation. So I have them usually on, if there's a question about how they're emptying or how well they empty, I'll have them empty. And then I'll check up post boy residual using a eight French catheter. So really tiny one.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I tell it's like a cocktail straw. It's really small. Yeah. Um, but I, what I, the reason I do that is there's data, there's actually papers that show, especially for women, not, not so much for men, but for women, having the peanut cup is a really bad way to do a urine culture and urinalysis because there's so much contamination.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Right.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So I want a pure specimen. So that I can send that or, [00:24:00] so I, I get a catheterized specimen. I see what their OID residual is, when that's appropriate. Um, and I use, uh, I'd use, uh, a specialized lab to do the urine cultures because, um, there are a couple of, I use p gnostics. There's a, a lot of people can use, we'll use MicroGen.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, I, I, you spoke, but I generally stay with p gnostics. And
Dr. Scott Sherr: so why is it necessary? Why is it necessary to do a specialized lab for urine culture?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Because Quest or LabCorp doesn't very basic thing. And you know, they say they do an advanced culture, but I've never been able to get 'em to do it, ever. Okay. Um, so the, the idea here is like a basic culture that you'll get in a routine lab is gonna be, they're gonna take one CC and they're gonna plate that on ter.
Dr. Linda Kiley: If anything grows in that after 24 hours, then they're gonna identify it and do the whole thing. [00:25:00] But, you know, if you don't get something to grow in that medium, you know, let's say you have urea plasmas or mycoplasma or ottum cellier or,
Dr. Scott Sherr: I don't know,
Dr. Linda Kiley: I'm interested one of Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a bunch of weird organisms like that that I
don't
Dr. Scott Sherr: knowum.
Dr. Scott Sherr: That's an interesting,
Dr. Linda Kiley: yeah,
Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah, yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: There's a, yeah, it's, it's had a number of different names, but there are a lot of weird bacteria and other organisms, even viruses, uh, fungi. I mean especially, especially in diabetics or borderline di borderline diabetics. Um, I found, you know, fungal infectious. That's not gonna show up on the standard.
Dr. Linda Kiley: It just won't. So, so
Dr. Scott Sherr: they're culturing it with the other labs are like, what are they doing? Are they doing genetics or the DNA or what are they doing?
Dr. Linda Kiley: They do PCR and then, you know, they'll, they'll, once they've identify an organism, then they'll go out and they'll do the sensitivities. Got it. You know, they do the PC for the broad spectrum thing to find, you know, do they find anything and then after they find something, then they go further.
Dr. Linda Kiley: It's one of the [00:26:00] things I like about some of these labs is, you know, they, they do extra testing so that you're not just left with, well, we didn't find anything. Well, we, we, we found something. We, or we might have found something, we're gonna look a little further and or, here's the sensitivity. And it's a real sensitivity profile.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, it's not just based on data, it's actually this organism was sensitive to these antibiotics.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Wait, wait, hold on a second. You're saying that, that LabCorp requests are just doing the sensitivities based on data rather than
Dr. Linda Kiley: No, no, no, no, no. They do culture and sensitivities, but you know, if you only likely to find the big four.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, okay. IE coli, enterococcus, Proteus, klebsella and, um, Klebsiella.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, what about all those other ones? You know, um, I mean, if I find a urea plasma, you know, there are some resistant urea plasma organisms. I need to know, can I treat them with, you know, doxycycline or do I have to use Le Quinn or, you know, et cetera.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So my job is to get, and I tell 'em this, I don't [00:27:00] use standard Labs for some of the things I do because you came to me for an answer and you already did the standard get an answer. So, you know, it's the whole definition of insanity. Right,
Dr. Scott Sherr: right. Of course.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Trying the same thing over and trying to get a different, so,
Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah.
Dr. Scott Sherr: So when you do these advanced cultures on people, uh, Linda, do you find that everybody has something going at this point? Or is it, is it not that common only? Do you find It's like much more specified in the, in the sense of how you can interpret them.
Dr. Linda Kiley: It's, you know, it's not. Unusual for me to find something like mycoplasma or urea plasma or a weird other organism.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Mm. And particularly in older patients, um, who have compromised immune systems, it's not unusual for me to find something that's not in the spectrum of stuff that's typically cultured out. Got it. So, but you know, I get a lot of negative cultures too, but that's okay. I mean, that's, yeah, I'm okay with that.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And the other thing is that, you know, sometimes I'll find a patient that I suspect has a bio [00:28:00] zone. Yes. And bios are notoriously difficult to culture out. So even if I get a negative culture, if everything they're telling me in their history and everything else I'm seeing, and especially they have some weird things in their ua, but they're not culturing out, you know, I'll say, I think you have a biofilm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I think we need to look at it this way and see if, you know, I, I'm gonna believe your symptoms because you're telling me what you're having and I don't think you're crazy. I mean, one of the things that used to make me crazy as a med student was. I would go present a case to my resident and it would be something weird, you know, she would have a, a strange, weird symptom, whatever, unusual.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Okay,
Dr. Scott Sherr: sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And they would say, oh, she's crazy. Send her to site. And I hated that because I didn't think these women were crazy. Sure.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And the number of women that I'd seen over my career that have come in thinking they're crazy, actually, having been told by multiple people that they're crazy, that were not crazy, but [00:29:00] they acted crazy 'cause they were so, they kind of bought into it.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Once they solved their problem, they actually normalized and started to act like a normal human, human and realize things were crazy and, you know,
Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: They cry, they, you know, it's like, oh my God, somebody actually believed me. And you know.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. I mean, I think urinary pain is such a big problem. Bladder pain, pelvic pain, like we talked about, like why aren't those tests more standard?
Dr. Scott Sherr: Like, why if you have urinary pain and you do the culture. Saying stuff, it's negative for the four organisms or whatever. Like, why isn't there the next step? Is it because just doctors don't understand what to do with that data or, or what's the sense
Dr. Linda Kiley: that you have there? I I, it may be a combination of things.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, there are a lot of things, you know, insurance and labs, although most of these specialty labs have some level of insurance, uh, you know, agreements going on. Um, but, you know, some of 'em, some doctors just don't wanna be bothered by like, doing that because it's an extra hassle. You have to have an extra kit.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You have to have, [00:30:00] right. You
Dr. Scott Sherr: have to have a catheter. Like, it's not just like you're taking like a urine sample from the office, right, right. Like,
Dr. Linda Kiley: here's a Dixie Cup, go pee. You know? I mean, um, but yeah, you know, it's really, I think some of them don't know. I think some of them just don't think it's practical for them.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, sometimes you're tied into a lab, you know, one of the things that I had a problem with back when I was in corporate medicine, which didn't, that didn't laugh, um, which they wanted me to use. The lab that they had the agreements with.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Of course.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. And I was like, but they don't do what I want, so I'm not gonna use them.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And that did not make me popular.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Did not make you popular. Yes. They did not meet their metrics. Yes, I know.
Dr. Linda Kiley: No.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So, yeah. But yeah,
Dr. Scott Sherr: like that. Yeah. This is, I think it's so interesting, right? Because the, the biofilm piece is a big one. I've heard a number of people recently. Uh, I was speaking to a lady that specializes in interstitial cystitis and she was telling me all about, you know, a lot of these bugs can actually hide in biofilms and that you don't know about it until you start breaking them up.[00:31:00]
Dr. Scott Sherr: And you do the urine cultures afterwards and you can see all this stuff. Like what are your, some like, and from a biofilm perspective, what are the things you typically would use, uh, to try to, does that like a, is that a framework that you think about too, in similar ways or, oh yeah. How do you address?
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. I mean, I'll, uh, I've done methylene blue. Um, I'll do like some of the general biofilm busters. I'll do, I do bladder installations. In fact, that's something that I started years ago out of desperation and, um.
Dr. Scott Sherr: What do you, what do you put in there?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, the, well, I have different cocktails depending on the patient, but the most common one is usually lidocaine, heparin, triamcinolone, and gentamycin with a little whoa, bicarb.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So
Dr. Scott Sherr: where'd you come up with that?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, there was a paper.
Dr. Scott Sherr: That's super, I read the cape. Can you, can you rattle those, all those off again for me please? It's lidocaine, gentamycin. What else?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Lidocaine, heparin. Um, triamcinolone, gentamycin and bicarbonate.
Dr. Scott Sherr: [00:32:00] Can you just kind of go over why each of those, just for people that, I mean, I think it's awesome.
Dr. Scott Sherr: That's, that's really interesting. Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. It's, it's, it's actually been really great. I mean, I've had patients who responded unbelievably well to this and, and had just get periodic treatments, you know, after the initial set. Um, or just come back, you know. Oh, it's been a year. I'm kind of having symptoms.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I need to do it again. Some who come every week, it's like, you know, I'm, this is how I'm gonna live for the rest of my life. It works. I'm happy. Whatever. So, um, so interestingly, you know, I had one patient who had this chronic UTI thing that I just, I tried everything. I could not get amylin. I knew, I knew she had a biofilm and I couldn't keep giving her oral antibiotics.
Dr. Linda Kiley: She was allergic to half the things in the, you know. Sure. So, um, I, I found a paper on, uh, tobramycin and then I found something on Gentamycin and I was like, well, we, you know, get Gentamycin. And, um, then I found another thing on, you [00:33:00] know, lidocaine heparin and then the triamcinolone. And there are papers that say triamcinolone is not necessary, and papers that say works.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And it's, it's worked for me. I'm not taking it out, you know, I know it's expensive, but. So, you know, reducing inflammation with the triamcinolone, lidocaine has a number of properties. I mean, I, I will use Prilocaine on occasion, especially if someone's sensitive to lidocaine. I haven't switched over to it, although I know that there are some interesting data on Prilocaine, but really to relieve pain initially, you know, that's part of it.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Mm-hmm. Just give us some initial pain relief.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. Um, and then it seems to have some, you know, augmenting properties with the other things. And then HIPA obviously is to, you know, open up kind of the, the channels if you will, you know, um,
Dr. Scott Sherr: so you're breaking up platelets, platelet aggregation.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. You
Dr. Scott Sherr: kind of thing.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, [00:34:00] interestingly, heparin and PanIN are related to one another. Um, there's some similarities.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And so I think that it does have some anti-inflammatory properties as well. Mm-hmm. So. And you don't need a lot. Um, different people who use these have different cocktails that, you know, proportions and stuff.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, and then the triamcinolone obviously is, you know, strictly inflammation. The antibiotic. If I, if I can open up these channels with these other things and I can get the antibiotic in there, hopefully, you know, gentamicin's usually pretty good 'cause they haven't been exposed to it.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure, yeah. It's
Dr. Linda Kiley: not an antibiotic
Dr. Scott Sherr: use very often anymore.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. It's cheap.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know,
Dr. Scott Sherr: and I suppose it'll be safe, I would imagine, in the bladder compared to orally or iv. Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Typically. I mean, you're not, you know, you're not really absorbing, absorbing a significant amount of it, so, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Unlikely to have any blood levels. One of the reasons I resorted to it also is like, you know, I'm not trying to destroy your gut microbiome at the same time.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Right, right. So if I can really [00:35:00] get it into the bladder, there's not gonna be that much that's gonna get to the rest of the system. So hopefully I'm not gonna be killing off your microbes in your. Um,
Dr. Scott Sherr: mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So it's,
Dr. Scott Sherr: so you ins and you instill it with like a small catheter like that you were describing.
Dr. Scott Sherr: You have to do like a full, you're like a full like cystoscopy and things like that?
Dr. Linda Kiley: No, no, no, no. We just use a 14 French, uh, catheter, like in and out cath kind of thing.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. Yeah. With a little syringe. So there's usually about 30 ccs or so depending on what we're doing. And so it's not too much for, you know, even a really, I mean, interstitial cystitis is a, is a spectrum.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I've seen everything from a more milder case where it's, it seems to be, um
Dr. Scott Sherr: mm-hmm
Dr. Linda Kiley: related to, you know, chronic infection kind of thing to so severe with the a hundred ulcers and scarring and, you know, stuff like that, that the bladder capacity due to scarring and fibrosis is down to like 30 ccs. I had a [00:36:00] patient who came in who had been given multiple.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Hydro dissensions, which is one of those old timey traditional treatments for interstitial cystitis that I'm not a big fan of. Every now and then, I might do one, but I don't do it very often. Um,
Dr. Scott Sherr: what is that procedure? What is that? Just, just extend
Dr. Linda Kiley: that blowing up. That's under anesthesia. So basically is a cystoscopy and then you overinflate the bladder, you know?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Got
Dr. Scott Sherr: it.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. And then you, you leave it like that for about a minute or two, not too long. Um, and then wash it out, you know? Got it. Okay. And that will show you these inflammatory, you know, usually you'll get these cascading bleeding areas and you'll see ulcerations and stuff like that. Those are a ulcer.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So, you know, you can see there's a really bad inflammatory condition
Dr. Scott Sherr: here.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Mm. Yeah. But I see patients who had a really, a bladder capacity of 30 ccs. Um, wow. That's rare, fortunately. Um, but, you know, putting 30 ccs in somebody's bladder, [00:37:00] usually they can tolerate. I try, I tell them, hold it as long as you can.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Try to hold it at least an hour, but hold it as long as you can and then pee it out.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Don't
Dr. Linda Kiley: worry about it. So yeah, 36 days in the bladder is usually something just about anyone can tolerate even with a minuscule amount of, uh, capacity. So I tell them to hold it as long as they can, at least an hour. I try to do that at least a minimum of an hour thing.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Go longer, go for it even better, you know? Yeah. Keep it in as long as you can. And, um, and then I'll look, depending on what I'm trying to do, I'll say, you know, let's do this every day for a week. Um, or sometimes even two weeks, depending on what you know it is we're trying to get at. Uh, or I'll do it, you know, a couple times a week, you know, let's see how you do.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Let's see how your first response is. Come back in a couple days, let's try it again. And if they come back and say, wow, I had like 24 hours of just, I felt great. You know, [00:38:00] then I feel vindicated that okay, we got, we're getting to it, so we just need to do this. So I kind of have them do a package of, you know,
Dr. Scott Sherr: sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Recurring ones. And, um, so that's one way,
Dr. Scott Sherr: right.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, um, I use slow dose naltrexone, uh, keto, I use, um, uh, I use peptides. I, you know, depending upon what I think the underlying issue is, like, I'll use the CINs or, uh, BPC, you know, especially if there's a gut component to this. And almost everybody with IC has IBS or that's that.
Dr. Scott Sherr: And that's what I was gonna ask you next is like, so I see inters interstitial cystitis, right? So talk about the gut component to this that you see oftentimes. What do you typically see present, and how do you, and, and how is addressing that affect your ability to treat the, the IC in this ca in this capacity?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Well, so, you know, there's some interesting data showing that, um, first of all, there is a bladder microbiome. Uh, the, [00:39:00] the fallacy that the bladder is a sterile environment is a fallacy. Yes.
Dr. Scott Sherr: It's
Dr. Linda Kiley: proven false.
Dr. Scott Sherr: There's very few sterile places in our body, I think that I don't think they really exist. Right. So, yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So one of the things that has been found in some of these elegant studies is that women even have overactive bladder, if you wanna call it that. Um, and who have other kinds of urinary dysfunction tend to have a dysbiosis in the bladder.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And so, you know, I feel that the gut and the bladder go hand in hand.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And so most of the time they will have some sort of IBS symptom, whether it's just constipation, diarrhea, bloating, you know, reflux. It's something like that. Sometimes it's really bad and they're like, oh my God, my gut is the worst. And sometimes it's just like bad. I mean, yeah. Sometimes I'm constipated, sometimes I'm, you know.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah, sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: But. Once we, once I establish that connection and we start [00:40:00] talking about it, you know, I tell them, you know, I think that it might be well for us to spend some time on your gut because inflammation starts in the gut and that's, you know, once you've got a leaky gut, um, because everybody's heard leak gut at some point, I think.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm,
Dr. Linda Kiley: mm-hmm. So once that, once you've got that leakiness right, that's inflammation leaking over into your body, well, where's it gonna go? It's gonna go to your brain. It's gonna go to your bladder, it's gonna, you know, bladder's close proximity parts your body. Yeah. Yeah. So we need to make sure that we have your gut working properly so that we can address your bladder and Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I'm not forgetting about your bladder. I'm definitely gonna address that.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: But we gotta do something about your gut too, if we really wanna get you better. You know, if all I do is focus on one little thing for you, I'm gonna miss the big picture. The big picture is it's your whole body that's got a problem.
Dr. Linda Kiley: That's just manifesting in one spot.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Right.
Dr. Linda Kiley: But if there's [00:41:00] all these other things, and once we start delving and I start asking questions and we start talking about it, you know, we start getting into these other things and, and the light bulb goes on and they're like, oh, these are all related to one another.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. And you know, sometimes it's Lyme or chronic EVV or chronic herpes. I mean, you know, how's your sleep? What are you sleeping? Oh no, I have horrible sleep. I can't sleep at all. I take sleep medication. Um,
Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, it's a, so that's hence the holistic, hence.
Yes,
Dr. Scott Sherr: exactly.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Functional,
Dr. Scott Sherr: you know, it's the thing like, and I, I love the way you described that because it's like there's so many factors at play and then some, for some reason you are manifesting symptoms specifically in this area, and that's why you're seeing me.
Dr. Scott Sherr: But if I just. Try to address what's happening in this specific area without looking at the bigger picture, like your sleep or your stress or your gut function. You're going to miss the forest from the trees and like,
Dr. Linda Kiley: yeah,
Dr. Scott Sherr: they might get better for a short period of time, but long term, those symptoms are gonna come [00:42:00] back.
Dr. Scott Sherr: And I'm sure you've seen that time and time again.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah. You know, I, I try to impress upon them, my goal is to give them better quality of life so that everything gets better. And we're not just gonna sit in this one little space because they have a urologist, they have a gastroenterologist,
they
Dr. Linda Kiley: have a, you know, cardiologist.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Every urologist, you Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. They have all these different people. And, and one of the things that's unfortunate, there are not, there are some, but there are not a lot of holistic gastroenterologists. All I wanna do is, you know, a couple Look here, look, look there. And, you know, I didn't see anything.
Dr. Linda Kiley: It looks gray.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yep.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I don't see, you know, I don't, I don't see anything wrong. It's like, well, but they're still having all these dysfunctional problems. So then we do the gut microbiome study and I found, you know, amoebas and weird parasites and horrible dysbiosis Zulu levels up, you know, the wazoo.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure,
Dr. Linda Kiley: sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Protected, uh, MMP nine, you know, [00:43:00] all these crazy things. And I'm like, okay, let's do a little work here and see if we can get this thing straightened out. I we'll keep working on your bladder.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And we'll, we'll work on your sleep and we'll work on, you know. Yeah.
Dr. Scott Sherr: And,
Dr. Linda Kiley: you know,
Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah, I get it. I get it. It's fun.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah.
Dr. Scott Sherr: I, this is actually, it's interesting because I, I, I was involved and I still am in hyperbaric oxygen therapy for many years, and it's a great tool in technology and I get people to come in to me, come in initially I remember like, I have migraines. I wanna use hyperbaric therapy. And like initially I'm like, yeah, let's put you in the chamber and see if you do.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Right. And then maybe they got better, maybe they didn't, but their symptoms would always come back. Right. Because it's not like it was fixing was actually underlying, just like if you fix their bladder, but they still have a significant dysbiosis like. You're still gonna get that coming back at some point.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Right. And then, you know, one of the things I would just, I was just curious about your answer to this question I was thinking about as you were talking, Linda, I know that interstitial cystitis has the highest sui suicide rate of any condition. Um, I think of any medical condition, um, [00:44:00] which is crazy. I mean, what, what is your sense of the percentage of those people that have it, that likely have the capacity to have significant improvement, um, that are walking around with it now you think it's 90%, do you think it's 50%?
Dr. Scott Sherr: Or what, what do you think
Dr. Linda Kiley: I would, from
Dr. Scott Sherr: your experience, would say
Dr. Linda Kiley: at least, at least 90, I mean,
Dr. Scott Sherr: at least 90%.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. Yeah. I had one, I've had one patient in my career who came in, um, who had, it was very long standing for her, and she was the one with the 30 cc capacity. Sure. Her husband had in installed the toilet in their van so that she could, and, and she would just sleep on the toilet.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I mean,
Dr. Scott Sherr: Jesus.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. You know, and, and she came to me and at that point, you know, I said. I don't know. I mean, the, your bladder is scarred down now. I, you know, you may actually need to consider a SA cystectomy.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah, sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. Um, um, but, you know, she was miserable. It, it was, it was horrible. Um, so [00:45:00] she needed radical treatment.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Something more than I would be doing, you know, that's not, that's not the procedure that I do. Right. But, um, I don't think there's a single person who can't be helped. Can, can we completely eradicate it? I mean, you know, one of the things I've been doing lately too is genomic studies on people and, um, genomic studies on people and, you know, looking at their hotspots and their detoxification and their inflammation and all of this other stuff.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And that's really opened a lot of doors to Okay. Let's see, we can, I think it's even better than food sensitivities, you know, because I think food sensitivities change over time.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I don't know that they are, with the exception of maybe celiac disease. Um, I think other things tend to be more mutable and have a lot to do with how the immune system is sampling and sending information [00:46:00] to, you know, in the gut, into the body.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So I don't think that food sensitivity's necessarily all stay the same. So I don't just wanna take people off, you know, all these foods.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure, sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I really want to kind of come to the other side of it, of where's the inflammation coming from and how can we put the net down and Sure. Yeah, sure. We're probably gonna have to avoid some fluids, you know, you're gonna have to back off on a few things for a while, but maybe not forever.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And, uh, we can get this other stuff under control and get your dysbiosis fixed and all that. Probably gonna be able to eat more things. Probably gonna have less inflammation and less pain. So, so, but I, I think by doing that, the likelihood is that the vast majority of IT patients better, well they completely better will maybe ob cured Well, there's so many factors.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Maybe not, you know, right. I mean, I, I tell people the
Dr. Scott Sherr: significant improvements you see
Dr. Linda Kiley: most across
Dr. Scott Sherr: the board.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, chronic conditions are chronically for a reason,
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Dr. Scott Sherr: Right, right. And they kind of take of the life of their own. Over time as well as a result of that. But over 90% think it have significant improvements. And that's, that's a big deal because it's one of the most painful and most challenging conditions out there to treat and to also to to live with. I mean, that's why the, the suicide rates are so high, this particular condition.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Um, and it's, you know, it's so interesting how this multi-factorial approach, this approach where you have multiple things you're doing at the same time, really can have a huge, huge impact. You know, one of the other, uh, [00:48:00] conditions that I, you know, that I see a lot, I used to see a lot when I was in, in training that was, uh, sent into psych is endometriosis.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Right? Which is another one. So do you, do you just kind of see it in the same framework here as you do for IC and for, and for bladder pain or, or for pelvic pain too?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yes, yes. So, uh, I have this list of things that I consider to be related to one another. So. Uh, endometriosis because I did a lot of that before I did the other, you know, I did a lot of gynecology before I really got into urogynecology.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Mm-hmm. I tended to really, because again, endometriosis is one of those things that is woefully underdiagnosed, undertreated, poorly understood. Yep. Um, you know, with pelvic pain. Um, so anyway, endometriosis, interstitial cystitis, irr, irritable bowel syndrome or whatever, you know, inflammatory bowel, however you wanna call it, migraine headaches, fibromyalgia, long COVID, or, you know, post-viral syndrome.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I consider the all to be [00:49:00] related to one another. The, the etiology may be a little different, but the underlying problem is still inflammation. Right. It's a generalized inflammation. It's manifesting in a particular way, but a lot of times these will go together. I see, I see. An endometriosis or endometriosis and IBS and I, you know, you see it all the time.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So you have to kind of, at first of all, the most important thing that a doctor can do is validate the patient and say, I believe I understand you. You have these symptoms, right? Are they're weird. They're not weird,
Dr. Scott Sherr: right?
Dr. Linda Kiley: You're not weird. You're not crazy. There's, you know, yes, there's really something wrong with you and yes, it's affecting your quality of life.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Let's figure out what it is. I mean, like, yeah, I was having a conversation with someone I'm close to not that long ago, who's been having some health problems, and she just said, you know, sometimes when I stand up I get so dizzy, I, I have to sit back down. I whack and I go, oh, you have pot [00:50:00] syndrome. And, um, it was like this light bulb, the whole, the entire li her entire life changedd with just that sentence.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Mm-hmm. Because nobody, no gastroenterologist. Internal medicine, you know, nobody else had said a word like that or even tested or, you know, done anything about it. It was just like a simple statement, you know, like this.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Thought in passing kind of things, right? Yeah. Like
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah,
Dr. Linda Kiley: I know what that is.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. You know, it's amazing. I mean, I think you're right in a sense that there's so much that sort of underlies the base of inflammation, right? In the sense that like, there's a lot of things that can cause inflammation, but in the end there's inflammation. So obviously you wanna try to find out the cause of the inflammation as much as you can, whether it's an infection or if it's, um, you know, there's some significant mitochondrial or sort of nutrient deficiencies and, and things like that.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Like as far as like, [00:51:00] not personalized, but more of like an inflammatory or anti-inflammatory stack. Um, what are the main things that you use there? You mentioned already LDN for example, and kein is two things that you use. Like what are your kind of, your base inflammatory, like anti-inflammatory things that you typically use in most patient?
Dr. Linda Kiley: So I, I'm very fond of BPC one by seven. Okay. Because it can be taken orally and I, I do the gut types a lot, so the B, c
Dr. Scott Sherr: mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Mm-hmm. Um, so I put a lot of patients on that, 'cause it tends to be very well tolerated.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And, um, it often makes, you know, a difference. It may not be a big difference. I mean, in some people it makes a huge difference in some, just a little.
Dr. Linda Kiley: But, you know, I, I'll do that. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, uh, depending upon, I, you know, I might, there are some supplements that I might go to, you know, or, or dim or, um, turmeric, curcumin, you know, sometimes I, you know, I, I use those things too. Um. [00:52:00] Late, I've started using some cord deps. Nice. I like fats. Yes.
Dr. Scott Sherr: I like
Dr. Linda Kiley: that.
Dr. Scott Sherr: I like that. The cords from Ute. I
Dr. Linda Kiley: like. Yes, I do. Nice. I do like it. Yeah. Yeah. I've been using it, I use it. I like it for the deep sleep thing. So
Dr. Scott Sherr: it does increase deep sleep. Yes, that's true.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah, it's nice. Which is, to me that's like one of the most critical things about reducing inflammation. It's getting the deep sleep.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So yeah,
Dr. Scott Sherr: that's a big
Dr. Linda Kiley: one. And then, um, yeah. Yeah. And, and then the thymosin. Um, I've had just tremendous success with the thymic thymosin Alpha one, thymosin beta four, you know, in the properly chosen patient. Uh, so, and then depending upon what else, you know, if there's mitochondrial dysfunction, you know, you can't get mut C anymore.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, SS 31 if you, you know, if you can.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Right.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, there are a lot of things you can't get anymore. So we're just sort of stuck with what we've got. But what we have is still pretty good. Um, doesn't work for everybody. And then, you know, again, the right [00:53:00] kind of probiotics, either empirically or if I could do a gut microbiome study that, you know, the, um, study in butyrate.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Mm-hmm. Also help the gut, you know. Mm-hmm. A lot of that inflammatory stuff on the gut. Solen and lox. I've been using a lot more in Lexi.
Dr. Scott Sherr: You have been using that? Okay. Interesting.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. Um, I, I like it. I like it. It seems to be really well tolerated. It's not expensive, um, compared to some of the other stuff that we have.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Right,
Dr. Scott Sherr: right, right.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, and I think it, you know, it because it's well tolerated and, and not highly costly, it's easy to incorporate with other things that we do. And so usually I use a cocktail and, and I'll start, you know, I usually start with kind of one or two things at a time. Um, so often depending on the patient and how bad it is and what I'm really thinking about, um.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, I'll start with like the oral BBC ides and then, um, [00:54:00] m lox eptide, you know, I'm really thinking a lot to get inflammation and, you know, the permeability
Dr. Scott Sherr: issue. Yeah. What's your experience been with LoRa Tide? Have you had good experience with that one, or? Pretty much,
Dr. Linda Kiley: yeah. I have some patients who are like, I'm never going.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah.
Dr. Scott Sherr: So RAs time for those people that know, maybe you can just describe what that is. I think that's relatively
Dr. Linda Kiley: new. Okay. So, so first to, first of all, zonulin is something that's a normal substance in the gut that allows nutrients to pass through the gut lining into the body. So, you know, we want to have some zin, but one of the things that seems to happen, and some people
Dr. Scott Sherr: are much more
Dr. Linda Kiley: susceptible is
Dr. Scott Sherr: mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Zonulin levels go really high. And so everything's getting through, you know, the, the bacteria produce something called lip, which is an inflammatory substance. And if you get a lot of that going across, you are going to create brain inflammation. It's gonna go hit wherever it's [00:55:00] gonna hit, you know, cardiovascular system, um, you know, bladder, uh, musculoskeletal, I mean, a lot of places that you can get it.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So, um, you don't want your zolin levels to be through the roof walking to be normal. So Loratab is a zonulin blocker and it doesn't block it a hundred percent. We're not trying to turn it on, we're just trying to turn it down.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: And usually I'll start by really turning it down and then I'll kind of go back off a little bit and, you know, just give it, I'll do the day and then maybe intermittently cyclic, you know, kind of thing.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Initially I try to do like twice, two doses of the day and
Dr. Scott Sherr: mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, like it's oral. Correct.
Dr. Scott Sherr: It's an oral peptide, right?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yes. It's an oral one, which is really nice.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Right. Yeah. That's the
Dr. Linda Kiley: other thing that's
Dr. Scott Sherr: nice to be, yeah. And the lox tell, maybe you can just give people a quick, um, description of what that is and what that does if you know.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Sure. So, um, lox, you know, it, it was approved in this country, [00:56:00] uh, as an eye drop for, um, um, like allergy symptoms and stuff. Mm-hmm. In, in Japan it's approved for use in asthma, but I think it gets used for a lot of other things. It's an orphan drug here because it wasn't popular enough, it didn't sell well.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So, uh, the company that got the approval stopped making it, but we can get it compounded and we can get it, you know, orally. It is effective and, um, seems to really be beneficial for reducing information in the gut as well as I've had patients say, eczema got better taking it. You know, eczema seems to go along with the inflammatory gut thing too.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure, sure,
Dr. Linda Kiley: sure. So, um, it's, it's interesting that I've seen that improve in some patients who wear on like Xox. So, yeah.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Cool.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, because it's well tolerated and because it's, it's just also damping down some of that inflammation.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, and it seems to do it in a very nice way. Um, I I, I've become nearly fond of it,
Dr. Scott Sherr: I can tell.
Dr. Scott Sherr: That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't have a lot of personal experience with it in my, in my clients, but I [00:57:00] do know I had Dr. Elizabeth Y on a podcast not too long ago, maybe about a year ago now, and we talked a lot about on ox, we talked about some of the other, or, um, orphan drugs that are out there, excuse me, that she's using as well.
Dr. Scott Sherr: So, really cool stuff. But it has been a great, I think, overall conversation about like, some really challenging conditions like, you know, bladder pain, pelvic pain, um, interstitial cystitis, endometriosis, IBS, dysbiosis, TMJ causing bladder, like causing pelvic pain. And, and so it's kind of amazing to me that.
Dr. Scott Sherr: These resources aren't more available to people to think about. And so I'm really happy you're doing this kind of work and kind of bringing it out there and like getting more exposure so that, you know, it's amazing to me, like you, you also said to me, 90% of people with IC can get better. Right? And like, that's like not heard of in the medical world and the conventional world.
Dr. Scott Sherr: You have ic, you get to get, you go to psych. Like that's what happens. Right? And like there could be a component there, don't get me wrong, like where people have that psychosocial emotional piece, right? And like that needs to be addressed. But you, you see real [00:58:00] changes by actually addressing the bladder, taking out those biofilms, doing the advanced urine cultures and all that stuff.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Absolutely. And, and just really believing the patient. I think one of the things that is, is the most therapeutic is the acknowledgement of the reality of the symptom and that they're not raising.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, once I acknowledge, yes, you know, I understand you have this condition and. I have a number of things in my toolbox.
Dr. Linda Kiley: I have a much bigger toolbox than I had, you know, 10 years ago or, or certainly 20 years ago.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, and so I'm gonna bring out as many things outta that toolbox for you as I can possibly come up with, and we will try to find something that gives you some relief. I can't promise you, you're not gonna have flareups, right.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, the sense chronic condition, but we will try to get to the bottom of it. And whatever it takes to give you a better quality of life, we're gonna do that.
Dr. Scott Sherr: I love it. I love it. So, uh, we ask one last question for everybody on the podcast, [00:59:00] Linda. And, uh, I love your emphasis on history and physical, by the way.
Dr. Scott Sherr: It's like such a big deal. Fab is like, it's very, it's, it's, it's a lot. These are lo lo losing arts, right? I mean, I don't do many physicals anymore, but I still do. I have pretty good history. But I just wanna say that before I get to the last question, which is, um, we ask every guest at on on the podcast.
Dr. Scott Sherr: What are three ways that all of us can live smarter, not harder. Meaning like what can we do smarter and not work as hard to get the outcome right? So it could be like, you know, work four hours and take four hours off and then do another four hours, like whatever, like everybody's got all their crazy patterns and things like that.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Or it could be things in health and wellness or in your life. So from everything that you can think of, like what are three ways that you feel like everybody can live a little bit smarter and a little bit less hard overall?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Okay, well first of all, you have to find a physical activity you have to do,
Dr. Scott Sherr: okay.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So I've been a martial artist for about 24 years. I just went today. I was there for an hour this morning. [01:00:00] Um, it is part of my life and I I love doing it. I can't imagine not doing it. And I think everyone needs something like that. It doesn't have to be martial arts. I think martial arts are great 'cause they do a lot, you know.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Lot effect. Yeah, sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Fast twitch muscle weight bearing exercise.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Got it all,
Dr. Linda Kiley: you know?
Dr. Scott Sherr: Totally. Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Mental, like the halt the end. You're
Dr. Scott Sherr: convincing me
Dr. Linda Kiley: to start
Dr. Scott Sherr: this.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Pick
Dr. Scott Sherr: things. Okay.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. Yeah. It's great. But anyway, but so you have to find
Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: A physical activity that you like to do.
Dr. Scott Sherr: That's beautiful. I like that.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Um, and then, you know, everybody talks about work life balance and you know, there are different phases in your life where you are working more and you're, you know, you're not taking care of yourself as much 'cause you're focusing more on your career and whatever, what kind of career you have. We know what it's like in medicine, so you know,
Dr. Scott Sherr: we do,
Dr. Linda Kiley: we do.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You just give up a certain portion of your youth and that's just what it is. Um, but you know, find something that [01:01:00] fulfills you, work that you enjoy because we all need to work and feel needed.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. Purpose.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Yeah. We need, need to feel like what we're doing, purpose. Yeah. What we need to find purpose, I guess that's the word.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Is purpose. And you know, I think, I mean there are. Lots of data out there about how purpose is a primary driver of longevity and when people lose their sense of purpose, that's when they start to dump.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yep. Yep.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So, um, so that, you know, find your, find your purpose and pursue it. Not to the extent that you're killing yourself, but maybe for the first three years when you're young and you can deal with it.
Dr. Linda Kiley: If it's something that you really need to deal like that, you know, if it's your calling, I tell people who are interested in going into medicine. If it's your calling, do it. If it's not your calling, go into something else. Finance, whatever, you know,
Dr. Scott Sherr: whatever. Something else. Yes, totally. Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Do
Dr. Scott Sherr: something else.
Dr. Scott Sherr: I was gonna say about surgeons too. If, like, if you don't love any other specialty, then be a surgeon. If you only love being a surgeon, but if you find anything else that you like almost as [01:02:00] much, you should do that instead. That's what, that's what everybody told me in surgeon. You
Dr. Linda Kiley: know, it's funny 'cause the advice that I got was a little, he said my, it was my, one of my OB GYN instructors, and he said it's really easy to pick your specialty.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Are you a surgeon or not? If you're a surgeon, then you have to do a surgical specialty because you won't be happy in a non-surgical specialty. If you're not a surgeon, don't do it. You know, if you, you'll know, you know, you already know you walked into the OR and one of two things happened. You went Yes.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Or you went, ah, you know, and, and I went, yes. So that was it. You know, I, I was a surgeon and I did not go into medical school thinking I was gonna do that. I thought I was gonna go into family practice and
Dr. Scott Sherr: Wow.
Dr. Linda Kiley: You know, Marcus Wellby, actually, Steven, Kylie, my last name was, you know, and he rode a motorcycle and I,
Dr. Scott Sherr: and that was pretty cool.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: That's neither here that,
Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah. I love it. Yeah. Okay. So do you have a, a third one, like a number three, A
Dr. Linda Kiley: third thing,
Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Be good to yourself. But [01:03:00] by doing that, I mean, you know, we know what's good for us. We know what kind of food is good for us. We know, we know whether or not we should be drinking or, you know, do doing all these other things, you know.
Dr. Linda Kiley: We need to be good to ourselves. And that means, you know, get the sleep that you need and you're not gonna always get it. You're gonna give it up for good reasons sometimes.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure, sure.
Dr. Linda Kiley: But, but don't let that go be, you know, do, do the right things for yourself, because that's gonna really help you function when you're stressed out and when the chips are down and all that kinda stuff.
Dr. Linda Kiley: So
Dr. Scott Sherr: I love it. Yeah. Um,
Dr. Linda Kiley: yeah,
Dr. Scott Sherr: it's something, and that's something you figure out over time, right? It's not something, you know, typically when you're younger, but as you get older you understand, you know, the gut feeling is there for a reason. Right? Like, there's nerve endings in that, as we know me. Linda, this has been great.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Where can people hear more about your, your work or learn about more of your practice or what you do?
Dr. Linda Kiley: Well, so, um, I practice in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida. Um, the name of [01:04:00] my practice is Ultra Health and Wellness, but, um, and, and I, I have a, I have a Facebook and uh, Instagram. Page and, um, so they could go on either
Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah,
Dr. Linda Kiley: Facebook or Instagram and look up ultra health and wellness, or they could look up, you know, dr linda kiley.com.
Dr. Linda Kiley: That's my website. And, uh, and I'm not too hard to find, I actually have that YouTube channel that I haven't really added a lot to in a while because I, you know, like
Dr. Scott Sherr: I I've heard of it. I've heard of it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well I think those are all great resources and, and Linda, I really do appreciate you spending the time.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Thank you.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Thank meeting with our audience to, like, to discuss some of these more challenging topics. This is also very self-serving for me in the sense that like, these are topics that I care a lot about that not a lot of people know about. Um, and that there's great people to refer to like you, to help.
Dr. Scott Sherr: And I'm sure you have an, a cadre of other people that you know around the country. If people have issues, you know, they could potentially reach out to you or your team and they could potentially, [01:05:00] you know, find some people in their local areas. So, uh, so thank you for spending. Time from with me today and, uh, I'm glad you got your martial arts training in earlier.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Thanks a lot. Well, thank you for having me on. You know, I, I love being able to spread the word because I feel like I, I don't want this to, you know, die or retire with me. And yeah, at some point I am gonna retire, so I, I want, I want people to know about this stuff, you know what I mean? No,
Dr. Scott Sherr: it's good. It's important.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. Okay, well enjoy the rest of your day and we'll, we'll talk soon. Okay. Thank you.
Dr. Linda Kiley: Alright, great. Thanks a lot.
Dr. Scott Sherr: Thanks so much for tuning into another episode of the Smarter Not Harder podcast, where we give you 1 cent solutions to $64,000 questions. In this episode, Dr. Linda went through some amazing ways of really approaching some very difficult conditions, pelvic pain, bladder pain, interstitial cystitis, inflammatory stacks, dysbiosis, and much more.
Dr. Scott Sherr: I learned a ton. I hope you did too. If you have these kinds of symptoms or have patience with these kinds of issues, refer them over. That's what I do all the time. Linda or her office may be able to help you if you're not in Florida where she's located. So [01:06:00] check it out. Really great information. So if you like this podcast, don't forget to like and subscribe below so you never miss an episode, and we'll see you next time on the Smarter and Harder podcast.
Find more from Dr. Linda Kiley:
Website: https://drlindakiley.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drkileyurogyn/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theholisticurogynecologist3891
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/linda-kiley-5999462b/
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